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Tom Bacsanyi

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The American Templates
« on: September 05, 2018, 04:55:39 PM »
So everybody knows that CB Macdonald brought the best holes of the British Isles to the US in the form of template holes.  This thread isn't to discuss the merits of the ubiquitous Redans, Biarritzes, Levens, and whatnot.  This thread is to ask what if the whole migration was reversed, and golf began in the US, and the best holes unique to the US (or North America lets not forget about the Canucks) were brought to the UK or elsewhere?  If you were Bizarro CB Macdonald, let's call him FW Burgerking, what holes from the US would you bring over there with you as YOUR templates?  Or are all the great holes of the US purported to be unique to the US actually thinly veiled UK templates?


Discuss!
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Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Peter Pallotta

Re: The American Templates
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2018, 05:32:36 PM »
Tom - nothing much to add (other than complimenting you on FW Burgerking) except to suggest that the cross-Atlantic dialectic is of long standing. I remember reading articles from the golden age: it seemed that, not 10 years after CBM opened his homage to the great GB&I holes/courses, there were British writers in British journals complimenting the great American courses (including PV); and not 10 years after that there were the Behr-Crane debates, with Behr the American defending the enduring brilliance of The Old Course; and then not 10 years after that there were GB&I writers suggesting that top American golfers were better than (and consistently beating) their British counterparts precisely because they grew up/practiced on the better, 'tougher' and more testing American courses.
In short: maybe the Brits have always had the brains and the Yankees always the muscle, and the dialectic continues to this day!   
Peter

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John Kavanaugh

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Re: The American Templates
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2018, 05:59:40 PM »
CB force fed America his templates in a system of private exclusive golf not familiar in the U.K.  I seriously doubt if he would have been so successful if the tables were turned.
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Ian Mackenzie

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Re: The American Templates
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2018, 06:01:21 PM »
1. Island greens (barf)
2. Classic Pete Dye 9th and 18th holes on either side of a pond dug out to make mounding...;-)


That's all I got...;-)
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Peter Pallotta

Re: The American Templates
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2018, 06:08:33 PM »
I think JK is trolling for someone to say that 'Mike K at Coul Links' continues the dialectic...
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John Kavanaugh

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Re: The American Templates
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2018, 06:10:44 PM »
Mike K builds public courses. In that he is nothing like CB.
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Peter Pallotta

Re: The American Templates
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2018, 06:24:01 PM »
I think JK is trolling for someone to say that "Mike K is as prescriptive as CBM ever was, and his public courses are for most folks as 'private' as CBM's ever were".


P
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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The American Templates
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2018, 06:29:32 PM »
Not at all. Mike K is one of my personal heros. Because of him I know that I will always be able to visit and play great golf courses no matter what life throws me.


CB was quite the opposite and perhaps the man single handedly responsible for the poor state of our game today. A game quite different than the U.K. model where class does not dictate where you can play.
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Peter Pallotta

Re: The American Templates
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2018, 06:34:23 PM »
As you've often said, John, the whole world of golf (both public and private, here and in the UK) is an oyster of delight for any person of good will and genuine desire -- with no barriers to entry save for those that someone carries buried deep inside his own soul. 
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Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The American Templates
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2018, 08:31:54 PM »
4 at Baltusrol Lower is an American template hole for sure.
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Garland Bayley

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Re: The American Templates
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2018, 01:34:33 AM »
How about a hole on a course made of British templates? 7 at Old MacDonald. Not British. Is it 17 at Black Mesa that exhibits the same feature without the Ocean?
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: The American Templates
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2018, 02:08:47 AM »
Wine Valley 7

Something along the lines of Wine Valley 9, Palouse Ridge 5, Bulle Rock 15. It looks like BR 15 hasn't maintained the full length of the right fairway.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The American Templates
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2018, 10:29:35 AM »

Interesting question.  Seems the most recognizable holes from American architects old and new?


Certainly the water par 3 is a near template.  Is Dye's cape already a CBM template? 


Maybe Fazio's valley fw. 
Nicklaus - steep shelf between fw?
Jones, Wilson - FW bunkering both sides of fw at landing zone
Rees and Bobby Jones - oversized, too simply shaped bunkers?
Doak?
Hanse?
Von Hagge?
Smyers?


Etc. etc. etc.  No time to fill out the list right now.

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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

jeffwarne

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Re: The American Templates
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2018, 10:38:31 AM »
Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on September 06, 2018, 10:29:35 AM

Interesting question.  Seems the most recognizable holes from American architects old and new?


Certainly the water par 3 is a near template.  Is Dye's cape already a CBM template? 


Maybe Fazio's valley fw. 
Nicklaus - steep shelf between fw?
Jones, Wilson - FW bunkering both sides of fw at landing zone
Rees and Bobby Jones - oversized, too simply shaped bunkers?
Doak?
Hanse?
Von Hagge?
Smyers?


Etc. etc. etc.  No time to fill out the list right now.


The Florida Template
OB left, condo right
The Reverse Florida.....


The Cartplate
Finish play to an elevated green, drive down then return to another higher point and tee off
also popular by same architects who are given "walking only" mandate
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 01:08:20 PM by jeffwarne »
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
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John Crowley

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Re: The American Templates
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2018, 11:12:18 AM »
Quote from: Ian Mackenzie on September 05, 2018, 06:01:21 PM
1. Island greens (barf)
2. Classic Pete Dye 9th and 18th holes on either side of a pond dug out to make mounding...;-)


That's all I got...;-)




+1,000
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Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The American Templates
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2018, 11:16:15 AM »
Steam shovel holes.
Atb
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Dwight Phelps

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Re: The American Templates
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2018, 11:18:29 AM »
Boomerang green?
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"We forget that the playing of golf should be a delightful expression of freedom" - Max Behr

Dave McCollum

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Re: The American Templates
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2018, 11:44:12 AM »
The Palm Springs template:  huge modern deluxe clubhouse overlooking a lake with the 9th and 18th holes playing into cape greens on either side, often with some sort of island green in the mix.  Add in some outdoor sculpture, waterfalls, fountains, eye candy bunkers for strategic interest.
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Garland Bayley

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Re: The American Templates
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2018, 11:49:18 AM »
Quote from: Dave McCollum on September 06, 2018, 11:44:12 AM
The Palm Springs template:  huge modern deluxe clubhouse overlooking a lake with the 9th and 18th holes playing into cape greens on either side, often with some sort of island green in the mix.  Add in some outdoor sculpture, waterfalls, fountains, eye candy bunkers for strategic interest.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill Brightly

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Re: The American Templates
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2018, 11:35:51 PM »
Pine Valley's 10th, Devils Asshole, immediately comes to mind. And thinking of the rest of the course, there are several others worthy of "template treatment."


Tillinghast's triple tier green feature at Ridgewood, or his five and dime.



Ross built a tremendous par 5 at Plainfield, #12, which Ben Crenshaw listed as one of his favorites. (see Courses by Country.)


The quarry hole at Saucon Valley's Weyhill course would definitely qualify. If the site has an old quarry... :)


 [size=78%]'[/size]
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 10:28:20 PM by Bill Brightly »
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Niall C

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Re: The American Templates
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2018, 09:26:08 AM »
Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on September 06, 2018, 10:29:35 AM

Interesting question.  Seems the most recognizable holes from American architects old and new?


Certainly the water par 3 is a near template.  Is Dye's cape already a CBM template? 


Maybe Fazio's valley fw. 
Nicklaus - steep shelf between fw?
Jones, Wilson - FW bunkering both sides of fw at landing zone
Rees and Bobby Jones - oversized, too simply shaped bunkers?
Doak?
Hanse?
Von Hagge?
Smyers?


Etc. etc. etc.  No time to fill out the list right now.

Jeff

Don't be shy, what would yours be ?

Niall
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BCrosby

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Re: The American Templates
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2018, 12:06:24 PM »
"The Florida Template: OB left, condo right
The Reverse Florida....."

Bingo.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The American Templates
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2018, 12:53:46 PM »
I built a version of Bill Coore's template green [8th at Sand Hills et al.] on our revision of Concord GC in Australia last year.


I try not to have templates, of my own.  There are plenty of ideas to borrow from others if I get desperate.
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The American Templates
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2018, 06:01:18 PM »

The topic still intrigues me.  Still not much time to think hard on it.


For one thing, some things I think of, like triple tiered greens, if i look hard enough, I find older examples.


Second, it occurs that if we want to look for American templates, I guess we ought to look at what's being built in China, since for the most part, they are modeling their courses as much after ours as our early architects modelled after Scotland.  Exporting the style seems like it would be the acid test.


It also seems more like "general styles" as templates than holes, i.e., wall to wall paths and irrigation, residential housing on both sides, cart girls...….
etc.
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

James Brown

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Re: The American Templates
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2018, 06:33:07 PM »
Did the US pioneer the practice of universities having golf courses?  That seems like something that doesn’t exist in the UK as far as I know.  And we’ve been doing it for 100 years. 



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