Sand Valley 3 "will be just over 6,000 yards and par will be 67 or 68"

[Peter Pallotta]

How about telling him: Peter P says you're dangerously close to drinking your own Kool-aid, so please listen to your architect on this one, will you? I mean, there's no shame in not *always* being a genius, eh? Look, even the 'Rocky' films pretty much died with #s 4 and 5, until Stallone finally had the good sense to get out of the way and let someone else make 'Creed'. And plus, this canary in the coalmine is here to say: the world is changing. I don't think even Joe Passov let alone Matty G are gonna wax poetic about one more set of 100 yard wide fairways, huge greens, and lots of sand, are they? And if they don't, it'll be because you'd undercut/diminished  an important new 'design' by insisting on your tired tried and true 'concept'.

Do you think that might help? Me, to be honest, am not so sure...

[Carl Rogers]

Distance wise, this course will be no push over for the golfer whose drives carries ......... let's say 210.  [/size]Is the assumption that the through the green will permit a lot of roll out?  So it might play shorter?  But then, if the lies are tight and there are forced carries over deep bunkers, then the short hitter will have it rough.

[David_Tepper]

Recent TD interview about the new course:
https://golfweek.com/2018/10/21/golf-19th-hole-tom-doak-taking-on-old-rival-your-notions-with-new-course/

[PCCraig]

I'm pretty tired of the Kidd vs. Doak angle.

[Peter Pallotta]

P - I know what you mean, but fortunately both are doing well enough, so 'no harm, no foul' I suppose. For me it's always about the writing: Eamon Lynch is a good writer and I like his work; but I don't like when folks stretch too far for the sake of a narrative, in this case 'Tom as iconoclast'. It may well be true, but I don't think (as Eamon suggests in support) that "purists blanche" at either the 4 Par 3s on PD's back nine or at the reversibility of The Loop. Heck, if that's what qualifies as being a purist, Mike Davis and the USGA set-up men must be the only purists left!
P

[Tom_Doak]

I'm pretty tired of the Kidd vs. Doak angle.

#Me too


But there's nothing else to write about until we actually start building something.

[Steve Lang]

   TD,
Are you going to have less than or more than 6 sets of tees?  Are you going to tickle a slope of 140?

[Tom_Doak]

  TD,
Are you going to have less than or more than 6 sets of tees?  Are you going to tickle a slope of 140?

They'd fire me before I got it to 140! 😉


If I could build two sets of tees I would.  But I'd guess we will wind up with four (ugh) or three.

[Ira Fishman]

As I note above, I am not a Tom Doak acolyte, but I do give him credit for having the Kahonas to state explicitly he is trying to build a Swinley Forest which I thought a truly marvelous course on all levels (or Rye which I have not played).  It always has been clear that Tom does not lack for confidence, but to be willing to offer up a comparison to great Colt Classics that have stood the test of time does--to repeat--take big Kahonas.


Ira

[George Myers]

sorry, but I must clarify.


The word is "cojones"


To add some relevant comment: New Zealand would be another course which fulfills the "par below 70 and distance roundabout 6000 yds, correct?

[Ira Fishman]

George, I stand corrected.  I did use the bastardized English version. 


Ira

[Peter Pallotta]

George, I stand corrected.  I did use the bastardized English version. 
Ira

I assumed it was the laid-back Southern California version - and I thought: 'Hmm, that's strange: Ira always struck me as a quintessentially northeastern type, Boston or New York'. Next thing I know you'll be telling me that Torrey Pines and the Arizona desert courses are your favourites!
P

[JMEvensky]

George, I stand corrected.  I did use the bastardized English version. 
Ira

I assumed it was the laid-back Southern California version - and I thought: 'Hmm, that's strange: Ira always struck me as a quintessentially northeastern type, Boston or New York'. Next thing I know you'll be telling me that Torrey Pines and the Arizona desert courses are your favourites!
P

I thought it was some Hawaiian Yiddish variant.

[Ira Fishman]

George, I stand corrected.  I did use the bastardized English version. 
Ira

I assumed it was the laid-back Southern California version - and I thought: 'Hmm, that's strange: Ira always struck me as a quintessentially northeastern type, Boston or New York'. Next thing I know you'll be telling me that Torrey Pines and the Arizona desert courses are your favourites!
P

I thought it was some Hawaiian Yiddish variant.

LOL...twice. 


Ira

[Peter Pallotta]

 
But he loves courses like Deal, and there's hardly an Hawaiian to be found there...
P

[Kalen Braley]

I'm just surprised anyone thinks Tom is still in the proving himself business...

If you don't think he knows what's he doing by now, then i'm not sure what would convince....

[Tom_Doak]

sorry, but I must clarify.


The word is "cojones"


To add some relevant comment: New Zealand would be another course which fulfills the "par below 70 and distance roundabout 6000 yds, correct?

Yes, New Zealand would be another comparable course.  I never think to mention it because I've never actually played it, I saw it just once, in 1982!


Arrowtown, in New Zealand, would be another, but I doubt we will go bunkerless like that one.

[Tom_Doak]

As I note above, I am not a Tom Doak acolyte, but I do give him credit for having the Kahonas to state explicitly he is trying to build a Swinley Forest which I thought a truly marvelous course on all levels (or Rye which I have not played).  It always has been clear that Tom does not lack for confidence, but to be willing to offer up a comparison to great Colt Classics that have stood the test of time does--to repeat--take big Kahonas.

Ira:


I don't agree here.  It takes some guts to say you're going to build a 6100-yard course and put up with all the naysayers, but honestly very few Americans have any idea of Swinley Forest or Rye, so they can't really call me on it.  Had I compared it to Cypress Point, yes, that would be asking for trouble.


However, after having built one course between Muirfield and North Berwick, and another next to National and Shinnecock, all other comparisons seem relatively tame to me.   

[Daryl David]

sorry, but I must clarify.


The word is "cojones"


To add some relevant comment: New Zealand would be another course which fulfills the "par below 70 and distance roundabout 6000 yds, correct?

Yes, New Zealand would be another comparable course.  I never think to mention it because I've never actually played it, I saw it just once, in 1982!


Arrowtown, in New Zealand, would be another, but I doubt we will go bunkerless like that one.

I can’t wait for this project. Anything that is the likes of New Zealand, Rye, Swinley and Arrowtown could have me relocating to Wisconsin...at least for summers.

[Ira Fishman]

As I note above, I am not a Tom Doak acolyte, but I do give him credit for having the Kahonas to state explicitly he is trying to build a Swinley Forest which I thought a truly marvelous course on all levels (or Rye which I have not played).  It always has been clear that Tom does not lack for confidence, but to be willing to offer up a comparison to great Colt Classics that have stood the test of time does--to repeat--take big Kahonas.

Ira:


I don't agree here.  It takes some guts to say you're going to build a 6100-yard course and put up with all the naysayers, but honestly very few Americans have any idea of Swinley Forest or Rye, so they can't really call me on it.  Had I compared it to Cypress Point, yes, that would be asking for trouble.


However, after having built one course between Muirfield and North Berwick, and another next to National and Shinnecock, all other comparisons seem relatively tame to me.   

Tom, more than a fair point.  With one caveat.  Getting access to Swinley Forest, Rye, and Sand Valley is straightforward so doing comparisons possible.  The odds for most of us to play any of NGLA, Shinnecock, or Sebonack, let alone all three, are pretty low.


I have been fortunate enough to play both Cypress Point and Swinley Forest.  I would play either any day of the week and twice on every day of the week.  My cajones comment stands.


Ira

[Adam Lawrence]

Comment may still stand, but you still can't spell 'cojones' 

[Ira Fishman]

Comment may still stand, but you still can't spell 'cojones' 

I had a feeling I had it wrong when I hit Post.  Just do not tell my kids--I am on their cases all of the time about grammar and spelling.


Ira

[George Myers]

All good, Ira.


Thanks for the chuckle.


The spanish speaker in me can't help to point out the irony that cajones is the word for canyons.

[Ira Fishman]

All good, Ira.


Thanks for the chuckle.


The spanish speaker in me can't help to point out the irony that cajones is the word for canyons.

George, thanks and cannot wait to share this one with my sister who is fluent in Spanish.  I barely scrape by with English.


Ira

[George Myers]

sorry, but I must clarify.


The word is "cojones"


To add some relevant comment: New Zealand would be another course which fulfills the "par below 70 and distance roundabout 6000 yds, correct?

Yes, New Zealand would be another comparable course.  I never think to mention it because I've never actually played it, I saw it just once, in 1982!


Arrowtown, in New Zealand, would be another, but I doubt we will go bunkerless like that one.

To be honest, I haven't seen it myself, but have read about it here (and in Confidential Guide Vol 1), and thought to mention it. So thanks are in order to the group!


I hope to go play the heathland courses at some point in the future.


Hoping that that a work trip might take me there (we have an office in Surrey).