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Ken Fry

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Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« on: September 02, 2018, 04:32:50 PM »
Many years ago, I was part of a discussion where in one of my posts, I was being critical of the work a particular gentleman had done around our region.  My comment was as follows:
"Just because someone is a landscape architect does not make them a golf course architect."
Soon after, a long time participant of this site nominated me for the infamous "post of the year."  I was delayed seeing his response and felt it was too late to respond myself.  As silly as it sounds, it has bothered me all these years.
The point I was trying to make was just because this particular gentleman had training in landscape architecture, his work on the ground was terrible.  I'd played four separate courses of his and felt I'd seen enough to form such a strong opinion of his work.
Seth Raynor's work is studied and admired and he didn't play golf.  There are some fine golf course architects in history with no official landscape training.  Just because you're trained doesn't mean you'll be good.
All this reminds me of the old joke,"What do you call the guy who comes in last in his medical school class?  Doctor."
So my question is this:  did my original comment deserve to be hit with the "post of the year" tag?
Ken

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2018, 04:38:51 PM »
Whilst Landscape Architecture seems to be the most common entrance to GCA, I think it’s much more that way in America (and perhaps Europe) than it is GB&I, at least until recently.


British architects seem to have come from all sorts of backgrounds.


And I know quite a few landscape architects who have made very boring GCA’s

Ryan Coles

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Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2018, 06:03:57 PM »
Is it misrepresentation to call yourself an Architect without membership of a professional body such as RIBA in the UK?


Can someone call themselves surveyors, engineers or solicitors without formal accreditation?


Perhaps Course Designer is a more appropriate job title as the job seems to encompass a range of disciplines from civil engineering, to planning, to landscape architecture.


Indeed it might be said you need to be a jack of all trades, master of none.


Clearly, great courses have been designed by many without any formal qualifications.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2018, 06:43:04 PM »
Architects and Landscape Architects can only use those titles in the UK if they’ve met the necessary qualifying criteria of the National bodies.
Any eedjit can call himself a golf course architect, grand poobah of course design, golf course shapester, queen of the most honourable company of golf course designers or god of the coursing masters. The international representative body has no professional standing.
F.
PS but Ken’s point is valid. I’ve met golf course architects who’ve never played golf. I know Landscape Architects who play golf and have designed courses. Also, you can call yourself a building or landscape designer with no formal qualifications. Clients would have to decide if that’s okay. Liability Insurance is a whole other matter!
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 06:52:54 PM by Marty Bonnar »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2018, 03:18:54 AM »
grand poobah of course design, golf course shapester, queen of the most honourable company of golf course designers or god of the coursing masters.


Wow slow down brother. You're giving this great marketing stuff away, free?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2018, 05:35:40 AM »
I'd imagine a Landscape Architect, given a golf course project, would research the subject matter to the point that they actually believe range orientation/orientation of holes in relation to the setting/rising sun should be the chief influence in selecting play corridors.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Blake Conant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2018, 07:57:43 AM »

One thing an LA may be surprisingly good at with little or no golf background is routing.  Knowing how to maximize space, move through space, and create variety and different experiences while moving through space is typically a strength of an LA. 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2018, 10:52:56 AM »

Blake,


While that could be true in theory, I find it rarely is in reality.  Moving through spaces is a great function of LA, but I find when LA trained land planners do routings (surprisingly common, and they want the gca to keep them, which I won't) the holes are terrible!  One example was an LP who seemed to like "Volcano" greens at the end of long par 4 holes. 


As to the OP, simply put, my landscape architecture degree (and I maintain my LA license in a few states, as it is sometimes necessary to practice gca there) gave me the basic technical skills, if I hadn't apprenticed with a gca, and learned that particular craft, I wouldn't be any good at it at all.  You have to know how golf is played and how the landforms you create affect that.


And, if they were one and the same, I wouldn't be members of both ASLA and ASGCA, because there wouldn't be a distinct association for golf architects.  They are obviously viewed as separate professions, but this big world is messy, and sometimes LA's do golf courses, and vice versa.


Don't recall Ken's example vividly, but t
his topic does come up on a sporadic basis here.  And, it generates some unnecessary hard feelings from time to time as folks debate ASGCA/EIGCA membership licensing, titles, etc.  There was nothing wrong with Ken's original comment. Not sure who nominated him for the theoretical "post of the year" but he was stating the obvious, no?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2018, 11:55:17 AM »

One thing an LA may be surprisingly good at with little or no golf background is routing.  Knowing how to maximize space, move through space, and create variety and different experiences while moving through space is typically a strength of an LA.


My own LA education stressed the idea of thinking about how one moves through three-dimensional space, but did not do much to teach us to think in three dimensions, which is a key part of what routing is about.   Was your program better at that?


(I really struggled with that sort of visualization at school, though I was very good at reading a topo map.  I got much better after spending a bit of time on a bulldozer.)

FWIW, among all the people who have spent time in my office over the years, the three who contributed the most to routings were one with an LA and graphics background, one with a shaping background, and one who was a math major and golfer.  What they had in common was the ability to think in 3-D.  I think that's a pretty rare ability and that some of it is just a matter of how your brain works, rather than what you studied in college - if you even went to college at all.


I think the criticism of landscape architects as golf course designers comes down to not their level of ability, but that they've been trained not to think golf is the first priority.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2018, 01:13:50 PM »

Tom,


I tend to agree.  Landscape architects (and other design professionals) are trained to save the world.  Golf doesn't seem to be part of that.


I have gone back to University of Illinois a few times as part of their
landscape architecture
alumni speaker series. I'll never forget the dean introducing the two speakers my first time:


"We have Cheri, who is doing REALLY IMPORTANT WORK IN THE FIELD OF ELDERY HOUSING, and Jeff (lowers tone of voice) who does golf courses."  I almost got booed.  But, after complimenting Cheri on her work (providing the elderly with well thought out, i.e., sunny and bright, living spaces is important work) I said the best part of being a golf course architect is working for people with skads of money, and more importantly, being the one of the few branches of landscape architecture where the LA is the first among equals among design professionals, AND, gets the majority of the budget.  Got some applause for that. :D


I would have to think about your contention that "thinking in 3D" contributes a lot to routing.  E[/size][/color]
xperience is still probably the key factor to me.
  Perhaps that is my experience.  Working first out of Chicago, it took me a long time to not be scared of putting holes on topo areas with a lot of contours.  I learned pretty quickly that the topography was far more workable in the field than what I had assumed on maps.  Architects starting somewhere else would probably have a different perspective.


To me, the 3D visualization comes more in the feature design.  More than a few LA's coming into my office had trouble drawing sand bunkers more than a foot below the green, no matter how many times I pointed out deeper (and better) examples of bunkering out in the field.  Of course, it is said Pete Dye's designs got better over time as he began (maybe with the help of some young associates) to work in 3D.  Harbor Town is set up as the perfect example of this theory, where all bunkers are flat.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2018, 01:48:19 PM »
I argued before a state technical licensing board once that "The thousands of registrants with LA certificates will do far more harm if they try and design (or re-design) a golf course in the case that they have no training or skills specifically in the area of golf architecture." My point was that just because someone has a landscape pedigree it does not make them a golf course architect.

To the point about background and skills — a LA degree can be an excellent beginning, as can agronomy and construction...even math and graphics, as Tom D notes. Nothing, however, takes the place of the mentor-protege relationship. I think this is the heart of good golf course architects — each has learned from someone over time.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2018, 02:51:06 PM »

I tend to agree.  Landscape architects (and other design professionals) are trained to save the world.  Golf doesn't seem to be part of that.


Well, that too, but I was speaking more of the fact that landscape architects rarely get hired to design a golf-only project, and when there are other factors involved, they tend to prioritize the housing lots and resort components first, and the golf far down the list.  Which is, of course, probably exactly the same as their client's priority list, and why they were hired.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2018, 03:33:28 PM »
It's a long story why I was appearing before a technical licensing board. In Arizona I was asked to sit on discussions back in the 1990s about potentially licensing golf course architects. The late Greg Nash looked the the room full of LA's and architects and asked, "Who exactly do you propose conduct the interviews for the eight of us here in Arizona who practice golf design...?" That pretty much put an end to it because it was obvious there was no need to create this bureaucracy.

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Blake Conant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2018, 03:48:42 PM »
Jeff,


I wasn't talking about the LA who works for a land planner and already has preconceived notions about what golf should be as well as an inherent interest in maximizing value of lots rather than the interest of the golf.  I'm talking about any number of LA's who understand space in 3-D, scale, and how to design spaces for people, but don't necessarily have any interest in golf or know much about the game.


Tom,


UGA did a decent amount of model work in design classes and engineering classes.  They also attempted to use some 3-D graphics technology, but those programs are really hard to grasp if you can't relate it to on-site experience.  Students would be better off learning the 3-D programs in conjunction with some design/build experience.  A design/build class was just taking off the year I graduated, so I hope that's grown and more kids are taking it.


Before getting into the field and operating equipment, what taught me the most about thinking in 3-D was a life drawing class and sculpture class in undergrad. The scale is different, but the concepts relate.  And my process for building stuff is born out of my process in those two classes. 
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 03:54:49 PM by Blake Conant »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2018, 05:04:00 PM »

UGA did a decent amount of model work in design classes and engineering classes.  They also attempted to use some 3-D graphics technology, but those programs are really hard to grasp if you can't relate it to on-site experience.  Students would be better off learning the 3-D programs in conjunction with some design/build experience.  A design/build class was just taking off the year I graduated, so I hope that's grown and more kids are taking it.

Before getting into the field and operating equipment, what taught me the most about thinking in 3-D was a life drawing class and sculpture class in undergrad. The scale is different, but the concepts relate.  And my process for building stuff is born out of my process in those two classes.


Interesting.  We had to take a freehand drawing class, which was by far the most difficult struggle of my college career - including Physics With Calculus at M.I.T.  Translating 3-D to 2-D was just NOT my thing.  We didn't take sculpture, but I got a crash course in it as soon as I started moving dirt around.


I don't see how anyone could learn to think in 3-D by looking at a computer screen, honestly.  Likewise, drawing grading plans is equally divorced from the real process, which is to figure out how to utilize both the cut AND the fill efficiently, and close at hand.  Being a shaper is 100x better for that.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2018, 05:45:00 PM »
Is it misrepresentation to call yourself an Architect without membership of a professional body such as RIBA in the UK?


Can someone call themselves surveyors, engineers or solicitors without formal accreditation?


Perhaps Course Designer is a more appropriate job title as the job seems to encompass a range of disciplines from civil engineering, to planning, to landscape architecture.


Indeed it might be said you need to be a jack of all trades, master of none.


Clearly, great courses have been designed by many without any formal qualifications.


Architects in the U.K. have to be registered on the Architects Registration Board ARB as stipulated by the 1997 Architects Act and it’s their choice whether they want to be a member of RIBA or not
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 05:47:03 PM by Ben Stephens »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2018, 06:27:42 PM »
I don't see any connection between Landscape architect and Golf course architect other than working in landforms.  But then I also don't consider a resume of "designing bunkers, tees and greens on existing golf courses with little routing experience to be golf course design either.  Actually, the truth is there is really just not enough work in the field to consider it a profession anymore.  IMHO the key to designing goilf courses ( not reworking existing projects) is convincing a client to let you do it.  That's the main requirement.  Speaking of thinking in 3D etc ; it is taught in many at forms.  I was a cabinetmaker after school and studied Queen Anne furniture for a couple of years and I think that has helped me as much as anything.   Golf design doesn't need "professional organizations" nearly as much as the "professional organizations" and their sponsors need them.  Same goes for golf course builders.  This business is a craft consisting of design/build now.  You have to be able to wait on it and the sad thing is not many of the young guys can unless they are tied to one of the signatures who can keep them on and and many of those don't deal in reality and rely solely on big contractors to cover them at inflated pricing. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2018, 08:54:10 PM »
Tom,
Riverfront .... Before I knew who you were, (2003 & 2004) and found this site, what struck me about Riverfront was that was an overall landscape idea and flow to each hole that I had never experienced previously on any golf course as well as being just a real good place to go play.  A very different and positive experience.


Pacific Dunes is the only Doak 10 I have ever played and part of what makes it so is the synergy between the game and the landscape.  One seems to overlay on the other.


With some exceptions, I think that the LA background, makes for better courses.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2018, 10:14:42 PM »
Tom,
Riverfront .... Before I knew who you were, (2003 & 2004) and found this site, what struck me about Riverfront was that was an overall landscape idea and flow to each hole that I had never experienced previously on any golf course as well as being just a real good place to go play.  A very different and positive experience.


Pacific Dunes is the only Doak 10 I have ever played and part of what makes it so is the synergy between the game and the landscape.  One seems to overlay on the other.


With some exceptions, I think that the LA background, makes for better courses.


Carl:


Yes, I believe that is an important part of what I do.  But I'm not sure what portion of that I got out of my three years of L.A. school, vs. seeing in person the great courses that set the precedent for me.  And no matter how good the synergy is, no course is going to be great if the golf isn't great, whereas there are plenty of fine courses where the landscape was an afterthought.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2018, 10:21:14 PM »
Had a chance to play Lake Shore CC in Glencoe a couple of weeks ago. Frederick Law Olmsted credited with the design. First five holes are par 4s, as are the last four (so if you tee off on ten you end up playing nine consecutive par 4s). Wondering if that odd routing resulted from distinction b/t LA and GCA? Also thought that the ravines on the property could have been incorporated more into the actual holes — if, for example, the green on #10 were moved to the west side of the ravine, you’d have a dangerously reachable par 5, with plenty to consider if you’re going to try to knock it on, instead of yet another 420 yard par 4

Peter Pallotta

Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2018, 10:40:26 PM »
As Tuco Ramirez said: If you're going to shoot, shoot - don't talk.

I think there's too much 'talking' going on in modern golf course architecture already.

Nothing wrong with talking, of course; but I think it best to shut up before the shooting starts.

If you don't you'll get either lousy conversation or you'll miss the target, or both.

(And if 'both' you're not getting into Golf's Top 100 Modern list any time soon.)

P
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 01:34:28 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2018, 08:49:13 AM »
I’m curious to know how much landscape architecture techniques, computer work etc actually helps in the field, not so much overall routing wise but in relation to smaller aspects like tee, hazard, greensites, drainage, woodlands etc placement, construction and shaping.
Also, the relationship to irrigation systems etc?

Vital, useful, useful sometimes. Not much use?
Also, to what extent are such techniques necessary to ‘sell’ the project showing and highlighting certain aspects to developers, clients, regulatory authorities, planning and local government bodies etc? And to what extent are the plans then used by such organisations to check-up on the on-site work either/both during construction or afterwards? As-built drawings, bills of quantity, pricing and all that.
Just asking. Just curious.
Atb

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2018, 09:24:10 AM »
I’m curious to know how much landscape architecture techniques, computer work etc actually helps in the field, not so much overall routing wise but in relation to smaller aspects like tee, hazard, greensites, drainage, woodlands etc placement, construction and shaping.
Also, the relationship to irrigation systems etc?

Vital, useful, useful sometimes. Not much use?
Also, to what extent are such techniques necessary to ‘sell’ the project showing and highlighting certain aspects to developers, clients, regulatory authorities, planning and local government bodies etc? And to what extent are the plans then used by such organisations to check-up on the on-site work either/both during construction or afterwards? As-built drawings, bills of quantity, pricing and all that.
Just asking. Just curious.



It depends entirely on the architect. 


Many swear by some of those things - different parts for different guys.  I'm sure they will come in shortly to tell you how important they all are.  But I can tell you for a fact that none of them are absolutely necessary if you have a good construction crew and good rapport with them. 


We managed to build Barnbougle Dunes without even having drawn a plan for the back nine, because I was afraid of it falling into another architect's hands, if Greg Ramsay got so desperate he would take financing from whomever came along!  And then when we got the job, there was no need for the plan.


And when those other architects insist it's unprofessional to work without detailed plans and budgets, just ask them how many top-100 courses they've built for less than $3 million all in.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2018, 10:09:56 AM »
As another LA who participates in this forum; what I can tell you our program at Rutgers focused on was spatial thinking (moving people through a series of spaces) on the design side and on how to get water to properly drain on the construction/practical side of the program. 


Since I'm pretty good at reading a topo map and can visualize what those lines close together or far apart really mean in the field; it was helpful when I was on site and we were moving earth and building.  We weren't specifically taught how to design corridors or then take that corridor/routing design to the next level; but having worked with a few professionals on real life projects opened my eyes on how its done in the real world.


Someone earlier posted (Jeff I think) the applause a speaker/panelist received for doing "good work for senior housing" while he was a golf course architect.  Same thing occurs with me when I attend continuing education conferences (in NJ its required for me to keep my LA Licence)since most of my time now is focused on entitling and constructing mixed use (commercial/residential) projects and the financing and building very dense affordable housing projects - I'm not saving the environment or hugging a tree so therefor my work isn't up to LA peer standards (then again I'm not losing much sleep over that).

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landscape Architect vs. Golf Course Architect
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2018, 10:28:50 AM »
I don't see how anyone could learn to think in 3-D by looking at a computer screen, honestly.  Likewise, drawing grading plans is equally divorced from the real process, which is to figure out how to utilize both the cut AND the fill efficiently, and close at hand.  Being a shaper is 100x better for that.



I guess it all depends on how you look at things.  I remember our first attempt at a 3D green detail.   We gathered around the screen and things didn't look too good.  One staffer said "I think the program is lousy." I said, I think the designer is.  We printed out the 2D plan, and I was able to show them that basically, they were drawing pimply little mounds just a foot or two high above the greens, the rolls on the greens had to be more than the "recommended 2-3%" and the slopes, at least those facing the golfers had to be more like 5 or 6 to 1, not the 3 to 1 they had lapsed into drawing.  Also, bunkers had to be twice as deep, etc.


In that case, the picture was worth a thousand words, as I had always told them everything had to be bigger in outdoor scale.  That said, given the work to be 3D, we don't do as many greens in 3D early for a design check, believing (now that I am doing most of the design work) that I can draw a contour plan to get what I want.  Side topic, but any gca can tell you handing a "finished" green sketch to an associate usually never comes back as drawn.  They are usually eager to put their stamp on things and "correct" the plan for me.  Yeah, sometimes they do find mistakes and its always good to have a second set of somewhat experienced eyes on anything you do.


I agree that even then, plans get you started but the final design has to be done in the field.  There are little tweaks contour plans just don't allow me to draw.  But other things, like distances from property envelope, elevations of green above flood plain, or for vision from the fw, etc. can be forgotten when just winging it in the field.  As the old saying goes, it is cheaper to move the pencil (mouse) than it is to move earth with a bulldozer.  And, erasers (delete/undo key) are cheaper than moving the dirt again if your design idea is not right the first time. 


And drainage plans.  When Jeff Blume became prez of ASGCA earlier this year, I recalled a story of him drawing a green detail at Champions Run in Omaha.  Now, it was a hilly site and easy to route drain pipes, but somehow he, perhaps assuming it was too easy, managed to run a pipe on an uphill grade on the plans.  The foreman asked me about it on a field visit, and I made him call the office asking for an explanation and correction, just to make Jeff sweat a bit.  My guess is he never took drain pipe elevations for granted again.  Yes, feeling shame is part of the learning process, LOL>


As to whether CAD is beneficial, its just a different way of working.  I mean, it is possible to keep track of bunker, green, tee sizes, etc.  without a CAD program, some of us just find it easier to draw a plan first to get those things basically right early.  Not that I don't completely change 2-4 greens per project out in the field, but there is really no reason to guess at tee sizes, locations, etc. 


As noted, there are some projects where enviro permits or other factors do require certain things to be pretty close to plan.  It is always nice when you can avoid such inconveniences, but not always possible.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach