Is it a poor use of the routing when

[Mark Chaplin]

the final holes play into a setting sun? The Castle Course at St Andrews has the 17th and 18th tee shots playing almost due west. Would it make sense to switch nines so the final holes are played with the sun behind?

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think so, but sometimes it is impossible, such as when the clubhouse is located anywhere from 7 to midnight if the site were a clock face.   That can happen when centralizing the clubhouse in the middle of a residential site, for at least one nine.


It is something we consider in routing.  On our current total reroute, we picked the back nine as the one with fewer holes facing west, even though there could be other reasons to reverse them.

[Jeff Schley]

This is very annoying if you are a twilight golfer, which I am many times.  I remember this topic coming up several months back and TD said he also considered it in routing decisions.
I just think it is best practice and helps playability, plus it gives some great drone shots of the course at sundown with the sun behind the drone.

[Joe Hancock]

This is very annoying if you are a twilight golfer, which I am many times.  I remember this topic coming up several months back and TD said he also considered it in routing decisions.
I just think it is best practice and helps playability, plus it gives some great drone shots of the course at sundown with the sun behind the drone.

Sounds like something an architect or firm would think about if they only cared about marketing, not playability.


I’ve had a couple humorous moments involving architects and photographers. The setup and poses asked for are stereotypically bad....and funny....not in a good way.

[Jeff Schley]

This is very annoying if you are a twilight golfer, which I am many times.  I remember this topic coming up several months back and TD said he also considered it in routing decisions.
I just think it is best practice and helps playability, plus it gives some great drone shots of the course at sundown with the sun behind the drone.

Sounds like something an architect or firm would think about if they only cared about marketing, not playability.


I’ve had a couple humorous moments involving architects and photographers. The setup and poses asked for are stereotypically bad....and funny....not in a good way.

I bet.  With today's drone footage, which is breathtaking at many courses it provides for some very good shots of the course at sundown.  It is certainly not a reason to put home holes with backs to the sun, just gives some cool vistas at dusk.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I was taken to the woodshed for suggesting that the first hole into the morning sun and the last hole into the evening sun was poor architecture. I can understand that sometimes the site makes anything else problematic, but I sure like it when my first tee ball and my last shot into the green are not into the sun.

[James Brown]

 Don’t think this matters. 

[Tyler Kearns]

Architects definitely consider the orientation of the holes when routing to avoid the scenarios described above.  I spent a number of years playing a course whose opening tee shot played due east and as a morning golfer, it was an unpleasant start.  The first tee experience is tough enough for many golfers, being blinded by the sun is an unnecessary hardship.


Tyler

[Peter Pallotta]

A particular pet-peeve of mine. I'm so grumbly about it that it's the only feature/aspect of a golf course that immediately -- and single-handedly -- will have me pegging it as a bad design. I mean, the Sun is an absolutely immutable and necessary requirement for life on this planet Earth -- is it too much to ask that architects at least notice it? (And plus, I don't there's another 'feature' that hurts/penalizes the higher handicapper exponentially more than it does the lower one. The latter is a better golfer in part because he's played a heck of a lot more golf in his life, and so has a lot more experience playing into the sun. If it's a harder shot for the scratch it's an absolute nightmare for the bogey golfer.)
P

[Thomas Dai]

No great fan myself of opening holes that play into the early morning sun nor of closing holes that play into the setting sun but if the shape of the land dictates it then sometimes needs must.
Atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

It’s certainly a consideration... but for me, it’s not that high on the list of many considerations.


Perhaps it would be in California but in GB&I, we don’t see him with his hat on very often...


“The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new”

[Tom_Doak]

Look, it's obvious you'd rather avoid this if you can.  The questions are whether you can avoid it, and whether you should knock a course down because of it.  So:


Q:  How much do you all knock down Pebble Beach as a great course? 
   Nos. 1, 2, 4, 5 into the morning sun, No. 18 dead into the setting sun in the summer. 
   [I played it at twilight several times when I was a kid.  You couldn't see where your tee shot went at all.]


That comes about when the holes have to run mostly east and west, and the clubhouse has to be on the west end.  [It wouldn't have been a problem for Pebble if the clubhouse were in Carmel, but I doubt that was Jack Neville's choice.]  If you're not trashing Pebble for it, then you should be introspective when you see it elsewhere.


Or, you can have a property like Barnbougle, where the dunes also run east and west, but the clubhouse site has to be in the middle, because of access.  There we had the dilemma of which was worse:  opening holes into the morning sun, or last two holes into the evening sun.  We opted for the latter, because I thought playing into the prevailing wind for 8 holes in the middle of the round would be worse than the sun factor, because it affected every player on the day, not just the guys for the last couple of hours.


These choices are called trade-offs.  There are few projects out there where you don't have to make any.  It's possible some architects are just careless about that sort of thing, but I'd bet that most are quite aware of it, and just had to decide that other factors were even more compelling.  Which they very rightly could be.


If you want to let something like that drive your opinion of a course, okay - as long as you're consistent, which almost no one is.  [Lots of people will never notice such things, if they don't play the course at dawn or twilight.]  But just like everything else about routing, it doesn't make sense to criticize the solution until you examine the other possibilities, and most people from the sidelines just aren't good at that.


P.S.  I asked Mr. Dye how come the 18th at the TPC at Sawgrass played straight into the setting sun, when the whole course was a swamp and he could have gone any direction.  He asked me if I'd observed the same thing about Pebble Beach, which I had.  And he said, "Bad for golfers, great for TV cameras behind the green." 

[Sean_A]

In my experience the sun issue has really only been a problem for winter golf. In season, its very easy to avoid this problem if it is such a big deal.  In winter, especially in the northern half of the globe, I do think sun should be a stronger consideration.  Mind you, I can only think of one course which I really thought was a problem...Sherwood Forest.  I did tick the course in my eval, but only because there is the opportunity to start on the 5th and eliminate maybe 45 minutes of setting sun issues.  I spose the membership hopes for cloudy days....

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

I recall once playing Cruden Bays Championship course on my own years ago, early 1980’s at about 6:30am. Absolutely ripped one off the first tee, you just ‘know’ when you’ve peached one, straight into the full early morning low bright sun. Searched for ages. Never found it and couldn’t see anyone else about. Dropped another ball and played on.
A couple of hours later I was on the 17th fairway passing by the Greenkeepers sheds when one of the greenkeepers, who I happened to know, wondered over and with a big grin handed me the ball I’d been unable to find on the first hole.
I asked him where he’d found it and he said centre-right of the fairway, and long, long being unusual for me. The old rascal had been watching me the whole time!

Atb

[Kyle Harris]

Does it sound economical to route a golf course around an occurrence that is a problem for at most two hours a day for a certain slice of a season?


No? Thought so.


Next.

[Peter Pallotta]

On the other hand, doesn't it make sense to 'trade off' an undeniably unpleasant experience (however good the golf hole might be in other respects) for a much more pleasant experience (even if this alternative hole might in some ways be 'less good')? 


Or are we suddenly to become purists and judge a golf hole solely in terms of its 'architectural merits'?  (If so, my eyes tell me that quite a number of much-praised modern golf holes wouldn't bear the scrutiny all that well.)     

[Tom_Doak]

On the other hand, doesn't it make sense to 'trade off' an undeniably unpleasant experience (however good the golf hole might be in other respects) for a much more pleasant experience (even if this alternative hole might in some ways be 'less good')? 


Or are we suddenly to become purists and judge a golf hole solely in terms of its 'architectural merits'?  (If so, my eyes tell me that quite a number of much-praised modern golf holes wouldn't bear the scrutiny all that well.)   

No, this isn't just about "insisting on the best hole".  We would usually make the change if we had a reasonable other option [even if it was only to avoid these exact criticisms, from people bound and determined to prove they would have been smarter than us for overlooking such a basic concept].  Though, I doubt any architect would have given up the 18th hole at Pebble Beach, they'd just have tried their damnedest to convince the client to put the Lodge somewhere else.


The point is more in my Barnbougle example above ... that more often than you think, there are really no perfect solutions because of things you can't control:  the boundaries, the topography, and the access point to the site.

[Peter Pallotta]

I understand, T, and I hope you know that I don't think myself smarter than you or any other working architect. I just mean to say that, for me, hitting into the sun is a 'failing' on par with features routinely criticized around here, like ponds in front of greens and 150 yard forced carries over wetlands. Maybe my eyes are particularly sensitive....

[Tom_Doak]

I understand, T, and I hope you know that I don't think myself smarter than you or any other working architect. I just mean to say that, for me, hitting into the sun is a 'failing' on par with features routinely criticized around here, like ponds in front of greens and 150 yard forced carries over wetlands. Maybe my eyes are particularly sensitive....

I understand what you mean.  To me, it's not as much of an issue, because it is only relevant for a small number of players per day, whereas the pond in front of the green is a hurdle for every player.  But it is something to be avoided when there is a reasonable alternative.


I was just thinking about whether the new routing I am working on has this issue.  Fortunately, it doesn't    It will be interesting to come back here and explain how that happened once the project is announced - presumably quite soon.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

How about a range pointed dead into the rising sun?  I played a Mid-Am in Denver where we were warming up straight into the sunrise.  I had a buddy caddying for me and had to ask where all my warmup shots were going. 


Where'd that go?


Left.


Where'd that go?


Big left.


How bout that one?


Right going right. 


Oh boy.

[Mark Chaplin]

In the case of the Castle the nines could be easily flipped but you’d then start with a par 3 into the sun.


The difficulty comes during the last hour of the day when golfers stand on the 17th tee and don’t get a great picture due to the setting sun plus it’s tough to see where the ball goes. Of course it’s only an hour a day but if I pay $500 to play Pebble Beach I expect to get as great an experience as a golfer teeing off a couple of hours before me.

[James Brown]

How about a range pointed dead into the rising sun?  I played a Mid-Am in Denver where we were warming up straight into the sunrise.  I had a buddy caddying for me and had to ask where all my warmup shots were going. 


Where'd that go?


Left.


Where'd that go?


Big left.


How bout that one?


Right going right. 


Oh boy.

Having the driving range oriented into the morning or evening sun is much worse than a single hole.  I’m gonna be on the range for an hour!

[Duncan Cheslett]

One of the few flaws of Alwoodley is that the last few holes play directly into the setting sun. Presumably in the early morning the rising sun similarly affects the early holes.


Alwoodley Golf Club - Google Maps by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr

Given the shape of the property and the location of the clubhouse it is difficult to see how this problem could have been avoided. Interestingly though, Dr MacKenzie does not appear to have made the same mistake again.

[James Boon]

I understand the logic of this but dont think it should be a driving factor in either design or rating. We all seem to value a course that changes direction and therefore constantly challenges us in a wind, so as a course moves around other holes rather than just 1 and 18 can be a problem. For instance my early morning rounds at Notts Hollinwell start with an "ideal" first hole with the sun behind, but by the 3rd we've swung around are heading straight back into that pesky early morning sun, cue hats pulled down, sunglasses on, standing behind partners to watch their shot and lots of "where did that go?". But its only a problem to those few early starters amongst us...


So unless its a classic out and back links that heads west on the front nine and then returns to the east on the back nine, there are always going to be holes where its tricky? 

In my experience the sun issue has really only been a problem for winter golf. In season, its very easy to avoid this problem if it is such a big deal.  In winter, especially in the northern half of the globe, I do think sun should be a stronger consideration.  Mind you, I can only think of one course which I really thought was a problem...Coxmoor.  I did tick the course in my eval, but only because there is the opportunity to start on the 5th and eliminate maybe 45 minutes of setting sun issues.  I spose the membership hopes for cloudy days....

Ciao

Sean, you've lost me a bit with Coxmoor? Yes its 18th plays into the setting sun so not ideal but the 5th is some way fromthe clubhouse?


Cheers,


James

[Bruce Katona]

In a perfect world 1,9,10, 18 and the range should be aligned NS to avoid the rising or setting sun.  The world isn't perfect nor are our sites.


The range really should be NS since it gets lots of action early in the day.  One of my favorite courses here in NJ had the range, 1 & 10 play NS where 9 & 18 played into the setting sun to get back to the clubhouse.  Since I played lots of evening golf, there were a few ball that got lost due to looking into the setting sun trying to find which direction they flew. 


If it was closer I play there as often as possible; it's a nice place to play and a course my wife can play as well (very few heroic carries required).