[Cal Seifert]

Ran states next to Eastward Ho! that New York, California, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and Ohio are the top 5 golf states in the US.


I would like to stick up for my home state of NJ as I think it should be in the top 5:


Pine Valley, Somerset Hills, Plainfield, Ridgewood, Baltusrol, Hollywood, Mountain Ridge, Essex County CC, Forsgate, Hidden Creek.......

I think Bandon could make a case for beating that on its own, much less some of the other top notch courses in Oregon be included...

NJ gets no respect!


I admit Bandon is remarkable, with all four of its courses ranked by Golf Magazine US Top 100 between 17-57. No other courses from Oregon made that list.


NJ has 6 courses in the top 100, including #1.




NY - 15
CA - 14
MA - 7
NJ - 6
OH - 6
FL - 6
PA - 5


https://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/photo/2017/08/16/top-100-golf-courses-united-states-2017

Well even some who work in NYC respond to the question of where they live, "Just West of Manhattan."   

Or northeast

[Cal Seifert]

Ran states next to Eastward Ho! that New York, California, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and Ohio are the top 5 golf states in the US.


I would like to stick up for my home state of NJ as I think it should be in the top 5:


Pine Valley, Somerset Hills, Plainfield, Ridgewood, Baltusrol, Hollywood, Mountain Ridge, Essex County CC, Forsgate, Hidden Creek.......

I think Bandon could make a case for beating that on its own, much less some of the other top notch courses in Oregon be included...

NJ gets no respect!


I admit Bandon is remarkable, with all four of its courses ranked by Golf Magazine US Top 100 between 17-57. No other courses from Oregon made that list.


NJ has 6 courses in the top 100, including #1.




NY - 15
CA - 14
MA - 7
NJ - 6
OH - 6
FL - 6
PA - 5


https://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/photo/2017/08/16/top-100-golf-courses-united-states-2017

Well even some who work in NYC respond to the question of where they live, "Just West of Manhattan."   

Or northeast, but CT does not have as much golf credibility as NJ 

[Cliff Hamm]

[Tom_Doak]

I just re-read this list and was struck by the fact that there are 4 courses in Ireland, 15 in Scotland, and 27 in England !

[JC Jones]

I just re-read this list and was struck by the fact that there are 4 courses in Ireland, 15 in Scotland, and 27 in England !

Look at the courses by country....just about the same ratio there.  I think Ran's travel preferences are revealed in his lists.

[Sean_A]

I just re-read this list and was struck by the fact that there are 4 courses in Ireland, 15 in Scotland, and 27 in England !

In the future I think we may see these numbers rise unless Ran gets self conscious about the course locations.


Ciao

[Jeff Schley]

I just re-read this list and was struck by the fact that there are 4 courses in Ireland, 15 in Scotland, and 27 in England !

Or his travel locations are driven by his course preferences.

Look at the courses by country....just about the same ratio there.  I think Ran's travel preferences are revealed in his lists.

[Dan_Callahan]

Looking through this list again, I'm struck by the range of courses on here. And looking at the criteria in the preamble, I think it's a great list. The only glaring oversight in my opinion is the omission of Kittansett. It seems to fit the criteria perfectly. And the work that has been done on the course in the last few years, clearing out all the trees, is remarkable. There is now an ocean view on pretty much every hole. And while I know golf architecture shouldn't be judged on views, the point is that by exposing the land in that way, the wind is now a significant factor on practically every shot. It's one of the few courses where I find myself smiling when I get to each tee box. For my money, Kittansett is just behind Dornoch as the most enjoyable course I've played.

[Jeff Schley]

So what will be course 148?  We are a a little over a month away...... suspense.

[JReese]

• Apparently, an error was made by me in including an American club that features a rigorous caddie policy; it will be removed this year and I will so note when it happens and what replaced it.

Just noticed this.....looks like we will have 2 new additions to the list?

[Pete Lavallee]

I grew up not 20 miles from Kittansett, a very good course that made the right decision to have Gil
Hanse renovate the place. But it is very exclusive and only allow play accompanied by a member. Our host the last time we played there was a great grand daughter of someone who came over on the Mayflower!

[Paul Jones]

I just made it back from Bermuda and Mid Ocean Club checks all the boxes for me to be included in the 147+2 Custodians - not that I get a vote.

[Andrew Harvie]

I grew up not 20 miles from Kittansett, a very good course that made the right decision to have Gil
Hanse renovate the place. But it is very exclusive and only allow play accompanied by a member. Our host the last time we played there was a great grand daughter of someone who came over on the Mayflower!

Kittansett allows unaccompanied play at slower times in the season

[Michael Chadwick]

If at all possible I would appreciate a sub heading of the 147 custodians that lists any clubs that once made an appearance but have since been replaced; as well as a list of new entries for the given year. Would be interesting (for me at least) to follow along with changes year to year.

[Brian Finn]

---

[Paul Rudovsky]

The only course on Ran's list that really shouldn't be there on this basis is Ardfin.  I know he loved it - he gave it a 9 on the Doak Scale - but I suspect the only reason he gained access to the course was so he could give them a high score.  [Well, that and he is old friends with the designer.]  That these ultra-private one-man courses open their doors to raters, and pretty much nobody else, is a little sleazy.  I don't think it qualifies them as Custodians of the Game.



Tom--could not agree more.  I found soft slow fairways (I was told they could not sand cap the fairways...they could only sand cap the greens, tees and green surrounds), a few way too long forced carries, some long green to tee tracks, and a course that is extremely difficult to walk.  Yes it is IMO the most spectacular sight for a golf course I have ever encountered, but I would not put the observation deck of the Empire State Bldg or the view of the Grand Canyon on this list.  Other than that, I love the list/compilation.  Have played 140 and am missing 9.  Hope expect to reduce the 9 by at least 3 this year.


Also agree with you regarding the exclusionary issue.  I started w this game playing simply awful munis in Queens, NY...and have ended up playing just about every great and just about every "exclusionary" course in the world.  Takes some effort, as do most wonderful things in this world.

[Sean_A]

I shared the list and the preamble with several friends at my home club, Crooked Stick.  I received emails back from several expressing surprise that CS didn't make the list.  A very healthy exchange of dialogue has followed which I believe has the potential to open minds to the principles behind Ran's list and exercise.  This has the potential to raise our collective golf IQ, and subsequently, it has the potential to achieve a refocus on that which is most important.  In my eyes, the ultimate end result could be a reduction in the cost of golf.  As the game struggles to find its next generation, raising the price of entry into golf is clearly counter to any goal in that regard.  Randolph, I am proud of you for using your GCA pulpit to try to effect change that has the potential to improve the game we all love.  I do believe this website has changed golf in some ways over the years, and this has been a good thing.  Your Custodians of the Game concept has the potential to do the greatest good GCA has yet accomplished.  Bravo.


TS

Ted

It is clear, at least in certain sectors, that the cost of golf is sky rocketing. However, demand, at least for the moment, hasn't been tempered. Its a strange world.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Worth reminding ourselves that Ran's criteria for the list is:

       .  A course that provides engaging puzzles to solve beats one which does not.

• A course where the ball is encouraged to run beats one where it is not.

• A course where you can carry your bag at anytime beats one where you cannot.

• A course where you can play quickly while walking, beats one where you cannot.

• A course that you can enjoy at all ages beats one where you cannot.

• A course with understated maintenance practices beats one with conspicuous green keeping.

• A club that emphasizes the simple game of golf beats one which pursues the trappings of status.

• A course you want to play again and again beats one you only wish to play annually.

• atb

[Tim Gallant]

The only course on Ran's list that really shouldn't be there on this basis is Ardfin.  I know he loved it - he gave it a 9 on the Doak Scale - but I suspect the only reason he gained access to the course was so he could give them a high score.  [Well, that and he is old friends with the designer.]  That these ultra-private one-man courses open their doors to raters, and pretty much nobody else, is a little sleazy.  I don't think it qualifies them as Custodians of the Game.



Tom--could not agree more.  I found soft slow fairways (I was told they could not sand cap the fairways...they could only sand cap the greens, tees and green surrounds), a few way too long forced carries, some long green to tee tracks, and a course that is extremely difficult to walk.  Yes it is IMO the most spectacular sight for a golf course I have ever encountered, but I would not put the observation deck of the Empire State Bldg or the view of the Grand Canyon on this list.  Other than that, I love the list/compilation.  Have played 140 and am missing 9.  Hope expect to reduce the 9 by at least 3 this year.


Also agree with you regarding the exclusionary issue.  I started w this game playing simply awful munis in Queens, NY...and have ended up playing just about every great and just about every "exclusionary" course in the world.  Takes some effort, as do most wonderful things in this world.

Ouch. I can give Tom the benefit of the doubt because his post was from 2018 when the operating model was still in doubt, but I can confirm that anyone can now call up and book a round / stay at Ardfin, so I'd hardly call it sleezy.


Re: Ardfin's qualities as a Custodian, Paul, I take your points in relation to it being on this list, but a lot of what you point out as flaws, are, in my opinion, some of the best aspects of the course. For example, I love some of the longer green to tee walks, which let you explore the setting in ways that make the course and island feel unified. All long walks are not created equal, and I'd put up the walk from 15 to 16 at Cypress as a shining example for how walks can heighten your emotional senses.


Re: forced carries - again, I actually applaud the way Bob and team made the holes feel at one with the land. I totally take the point that lost balls are inevitable, and in general, I'm not a fan of when recoverability is removed, but at the same point, if you start to cut that back, you start to divorce the holes from the surrounds, and in my mind, that's one of the unique features of the course; that it feels so...Jura!


Based on the guidelines, I'm not sure Ardfin does fit on this particular list, but it's also not worth the wack job it just got 

[Bernie Bell]

Perhaps the "simple pleasures v trappings of status" criterion is given a much lower weight than the others.

[Steve Lapper]

The only course on Ran's list that really shouldn't be there on this basis is Ardfin.  I know he loved it - he gave it a 9 on the Doak Scale - but I suspect the only reason he gained access to the course was so he could give them a high score.  [Well, that and he is old friends with the designer.]  That these ultra-private one-man courses open their doors to raters, and pretty much nobody else, is a little sleazy.  I don't think it qualifies them as Custodians of the Game.



Tom--could not agree more.  I found soft slow fairways (I was told they could not sand cap the fairways...they could only sand cap the greens, tees and green surrounds), a few way too long forced carries, some long green to tee tracks, and a course that is extremely difficult to walk.  Yes it is IMO the most spectacular sight for a golf course I have ever encountered, but I would not put the observation deck of the Empire State Bldg or the view of the Grand Canyon on this list.  Other than that, I love the list/compilation.  Have played 140 and am missing 9.  Hope expect to reduce the 9 by at least 3 this year.


Also agree with you regarding the exclusionary issue.  I started w this game playing simply awful munis in Queens, NY...and have ended up playing just about every great and just about every "exclusionary" course in the world.  Takes some effort, as do most wonderful things in this world.

Ouch. I can give Tom the benefit of the doubt because his post was from 2018 when the operating model was still in doubt, but I can confirm that anyone can now call up and book a round / stay at Ardfin, so I'd hardly call it sleezy.


Re: Ardfin's qualities as a Custodian, Paul, I take your points in relation to it being on this list, but a lot of what you point out as flaws, are, in my opinion, some of the best aspects of the course. For example, I love some of the longer green to tee walks, which let you explore the setting in ways that make the course and island feel unified. All long walks are not created equal, and I'd put up the walk from 15 to 16 at Cypress as a shining example for how walks can heighten your emotional senses.


Re: forced carries - again, I actually applaud the way Bob and team made the holes feel at one with the land. I totally take the point that lost balls are inevitable, and in general, I'm not a fan of when recoverability is removed, but at the same point, if you start to cut that back, you start to divorce the holes from the surrounds, and in my mind, that's one of the unique features of the course; that it feels so...Islay!


Based on the guidelines, I'm not sure Ardfin does fit on this particular list, but it's also not worth the wack job it just got 

Tim,


  Spot on, and most especially when the criticism is coming from a multi-magazine rater who's lifelong primary mission it is to check off every existing, hardly-followed, and self-created list.


  While he's undeniably the keeper of the largest course visit spreadsheet known to mankind, even the most basic architecture fan finds little substance to such endeavors. All too often his hustles to furiously bounce from course-to-course in such a pursuit are little more than a prelude to his blog where he can talk about his own score and whatever prodigious amount of driving and travel it entailed.


  Several of my non-rater friends journeyed to Ardfin last year, parted with their $$ and were warmly greeted. They loved the experience and intend to go back. There was, and is, nothing "sleazy" about the place. Sadly, Paul's distasteful accusations are 100% baseless.


 

[John Kavanaugh]

When rater turns on rater I fear my job is done.

[Paul Jones]

I found this thread and posted in hopes of others posting which courses they feel should be included, very quickly it turned into a Kittansett access and which courses should NOT be on the list.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Steve--

If you would read my prior post you will find that I never called Ardfin sleazy...I did agree with Tom's comment about one owner places that only invite raters...but I believe Tim's reply on that matter put it to bed.  I have never criticized Ardfin because of its accessibility (or lack thereof).  And I believe Tom's comment in this regard was directed at the course's management not the course itself.

I have criticized Ardfin because of the wetness and softness of its fairways...as have a good number of other highly qualified observers who have played there.  I do not understand how a course that for sure "violates" Ran's rule #2 (A course where the ball is encouraged to run beats one where it is not) can be highly rated in Scotland of all places.  I have felt the same way about Loch Lomond (although have not been back since its latest attempt to fix its drainage issues).  Sometimes there are issues that even investment bankers $$ cannot fix.  At least to me, "fast and firm" is an absolutely necessary trait for greatness in GB&I if not everywhere.  And certainly true for a World #20 and Scotland #5 in my opinion.

I have also criticized Ardfin for its long carries off certain tees (as a result of only two sets of tee boxes when I played it...I gather they now have 4) and long carries into at least two greens (11 and 14).   I call your attention to Ran's rule #5 (A course that you can enjoy at all ages beats one where you cannot) and suggest to you that most golfers above the age of 70 cannot play these two holes and finish them and I would suggest that is true for most women golfers as well.

I continue to feel that Ardfin is the most spectacular site for golf I have ever seen.  But whether it is for rating the "top", best", or "favorite" courses or "Custodians" the quality of the golf should be paramount, and it is there that I feel Ardfin fails to meet the test of "greatness".  And by the way, with only 149 Custodians, some 99.61% of the courses in the world fail that test!

So Steve, rather than simply saying my points are baseless or ranting about my goals , please respond to the above two points about the subject at hand.  And how you found the course on your last visit.  When you walked all 18...did you feel like you wanted to immediately go back to the first tee and replay all 18?

[Steve Lapper]

Paul,


   Semantically, your enthusiastic (could not agree more...and Also agree with you...") and overt support for Tom Doak's calling "these ultra-private one-man courses open their doors to raters, and pretty much nobody else, is a little sleazy." is more than enough validation for my statement. Endorsement = Agreement in most people's book.


   FWIW, management is entitled to do whatever it wants, and the facts are that Greg Coffey (its owner and never an investment banker) didn't want ANY raters for the first year. Only the advocacy of others allowed any of us to step foot on that property back then. Ellerston, for example, which we've both seen, couldn't give a rat's arse about any raters. Others feel the same. It's a wee bit hypocritical that several courses in the Midwest made themselves available only to GD back in their early days....just about the same time I'd wager you were rating them for the first time for that magazine.


   Your architectural critique is a bit weak as well. The softness and wetness won't survive the owner's recent and current efforts to mitigate it....and let's be realistic, new courses are not best judged for conditioning at debut. I recall seeing one of the GCA's absolute most bouncy favorites it's first season and it played like velcro. I went back a few years later and it was a trampoline!


  Sure, there are several (but not more than 2-3) forced carries at Ardfin. So what? There are some at Fishers Island or Maidstone as well. Given they set tees for mostly sturdier players on the Isle of Jura, perhaps it was best for you to hit from the other side? BTW...Do you knock down Pine Valley for it's 16 forced carries??


    I do concur I may not have wanted to "immediately go back to the first tee and replay all 18." However, I know I don't want to do that at Kiawah Ocean, French Lick, Chambers Bay, Lytham & St. Annes either!


    Finally, I'd vote for the likes of a Hooper, a Rockaway Hunt, or an Old Moray ahead of the aforementioned, but it ain't my list. Cheers.


 


 




 

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