GCA's Next 50 section has been replaced by 147 Custodians of the Game

[Steve Lapper]

I dunno if Ran will reply so let me opine on 2 things-


The Whip and other places many think are excluded are purposely excluded b/c Ran has rules to this list some involving the club's policies.  Ran wants to be able to go have a carry bag and get "after it" whenever he wants.  Can you perhaps take your dog on the course ala the UK model as well? I'm just saying-- but there were criteria to be met.

Noel,  The Whip has no different a caddy-carry policy than others listed here, thus the excuse for it's exclusion doesn't fly. Upon further reflection, the omission of Prairie Dunes (which just may have the most inclusive policies of all the upper-echelon US Privates) is glaring. I've carried my own bag there as well as seen vocals out with their dogs. Please tell us how a place like this doesn't replace at least 25 of those listed?  

I know Golf's most beloved has a reason for the Whip's exclusion- one of which is the thrashing I administered to him there a few years ago (I'm kidding on this but needling him().. He loves the course so you'd have to ask him what the real reason is.  The pro there Jim Wahl is a true gentleman of the game as well.. As per PD, I think the width/grass/losing your ball thing came into play.. It's not a ranking per se of architecture in some respects..


To me the biggest criticism Ran is going to face is where are the public golf courses or where is a place like Bethpage?  I do know high grass or tightness is a factor. Ran lambasted me for hearing that Deal has allowed high grasses in spots of late as well as gulp allowing some busloads of hordes of foreign golfers for $$$ (that is conjecture, I've never seen that but society play is up there I believe).. The high grass at Deal  is because English Nature has asked them to allow a place for the larks to mate/live as they were endangered in losing them (this is what I was told).  Larks are part of the experience there as both Darwin and Sir Guy Campbell have opined on their songs while playing Deal.  Also I was told by an old member (just like in a PG Woodhouse story) a very true thing, when the weather is bad and the larks come out at Deal, the sun will come out in 20 minutes.. I can say i've seen that happen on half a dozen rounds..  I still can't see how Sandwich is up so high and Deal behind it.  But many (Arble/Tom D) will argue about that as sour grapes and me being a Deal homer..

Noel,


  In the interest of playing Devil's Advocate: if a PD is excluded for it's "gunk," then why isn't a Gamble Sands and it's fun, playable width put in?? The gorse at RCD or RSG or Troon is no better  than PD's gunk FWIW. Hmmmm?


As for Ran taking a licking on a course, that must explain why Indian Creek never had a chance!

[Matthew Petersen]

This is a wonderful new feature and I especially like the ability to add courses over the years and change the list as needed.


My questions marks are Pebble and WeKoPa. I know you are able to walk and carry at Pebble, but I question how many really do so. Nevermind that the rest of the vibe of the place is at odds with the "custodian" vibe Ran wishes to champion. It's quite busy, ungodly expensive, hard to get on unless you're a guest at the even more ungodly expensive resort, etc. It's a nice walk, but it's so far gone from being the kind of place where you feel like you can go out and play golf (or play 36!) that to include it here seems very strange indeed.


WeKoPa is perhaps a little closer to the ideal, though in 10 years and probably 25 rounds I've played there I've seen, I think, one other person walking. To be fair, I haven't been walking in all of those rounds, only the ones during the cooler season. I recall when they opened, they made more of an effort at making walking an option. They even had push carts by the first tee. Those haven't been around for some time now, that I've seen. They aren't offering a different rate for walkers or anything of that sort either. Desert Forest seems to have a better walking culture, from my limited experience there. On the other hand, that's a private club and I like the idea of pushing a public course when possible, and WeKoPa is a significantly more playable course as it is much wider. Again, in the end, I love WKP, I think any visitor to Phoenix should check it out as among the best possible examples of what desert golf can be, but it is still very much resort golf that defaults to guys meeting you at the bag drop and sticking your bag on a cart because cartball is the default assumption. I find it hard to believe it's top 147 custodian of the values championed here, as good as the course and the walk is.

[Craig Disher]

As for Ran taking a licking on a course, that must explain why Indian Creek never had a chance!

Likely the same explanation for Chechessee Creek. 

[Kalen Braley]

I think this is a terrific exercise, but I don't get the expensive rigmarole bit.


Most of these courses are either very expensive privates or pricey daily fees.  Throw in travel and lodging costs and its well into the thousands to play these places...but a few extra bucks for a caddy and otherwise is now over the top?

[Steve Kline]

Based on the article, it seems Ran left Prairie Dunes off the list because of too much hunting for lost balls.

I dunno if Ran will reply so let me opine on 2 things-


The Whip and other places many think are excluded are purposely excluded b/c Ran has rules to this list some involving the club's policies.  Ran wants to be able to go have a carry bag and get "after it" whenever he wants.  Can you perhaps take your dog on the course ala the UK model as well? I'm just saying-- but there were criteria to be met.

Noel,  The Whip has no different a caddy-carry policy than others listed here, thus the excuse for it's exclusion doesn't fly. Upon further reflection, the omission of Prairie Dunes (which just may have the most inclusive policies of all the upper-echelon US Privates) is glaring. I've carried my own bag there as well as seen vocals out with their dogs. Please tell us how a place like this doesn't replace at least 25 of those listed?  

[George Pazin]

Why, it's almost as if this "list" was compiled to foment discussion of the world's great courses! Imagine that!!


 

[Jeff Schley]

Based on the article, it seems Ran left Prairie Dunes off the list because of too much hunting for lost balls.

I dunno if Ran will reply so let me opine on 2 things-


The Whip and other places many think are excluded are purposely excluded b/c Ran has rules to this list some involving the club's policies.  Ran wants to be able to go have a carry bag and get "after it" whenever he wants.  Can you perhaps take your dog on the course ala the UK model as well? I'm just saying-- but there were criteria to be met.

Noel,  The Whip has no different a caddy-carry policy than others listed here, thus the excuse for it's exclusion doesn't fly. Upon further reflection, the omission of Prairie Dunes (which just may have the most inclusive policies of all the upper-echelon US Privates) is glaring. I've carried my own bag there as well as seen vocals out with their dogs. Please tell us how a place like this doesn't replace at least 25 of those listed?  

I'm not sure how much hunting for balls I would do, as there are rattlesnakes there.  If I couldn't see if I wasn't going to walk in there.  I loved PD for it's design of doglegs both ways and some straight holes.  Not many flat putts I can remember however.

[Brian Finn]

I like the list and I like the criteria, but the two really don't seem to go together.  My opinion is based largely on the inclusion of so many highly exclusive (and in some cases, exclusionary) US courses.  While I recognize few (if any) of the courses listed meet all of the criteria, it is difficult (for me) to reconcile the 'custodian' concept with many of these clubs. 

[Jeff Schley]

Interesting list where half the courses on many top 10 rankings failed to make the cut:

* Pine Valley
* CPC
* ANGC
* Shinnie
* Oakmont.
I wonder if Tara Iti will be included sometime in the near future? 

With Dismal Red making the grade as a custodian, will Ran soon publish a profile of it in Courses By Country? 
Edited for formatting.

Good points Jim.  How ironic huh?
Dismal Red better include a cart ride from the clubhouse to the 1st tee and back, because that is a HAUL!

[BHoover]

I like the list and I like the criteria, but the two really don't seem to go together.  My opinion is based largely on the inclusion of so many highly exclusive (and in some cases, exclusionary) US courses.  While I recognize few (if any) of the courses listed meet all of the criteria, it is difficult (for me) to reconcile the 'custodian' concept with many of these clubs.

I agree with you, Brian. *Well* said.

[Steve_Roths]

I noticed SILLOTH ON SOLWAY on the list.  Is there anything fun to see nearby?  I am looking towards a trip in 2019 and this one peaked my interests.

[Sean_A]

The four courses which stood out for me are:

Goswick
Elie
Palmetto
Gleneagles Kings

All four display excellent architecture and are lovely days out

All are very different customer models, ranges and levels of customer comfort

Folks can get on with the game with a minimum of fuss...even at 5* Gleneagles

The courses can be walked and are routinely walked without restrictions

There is an element of distanced nature about the courses...even middle of town Palmetto and Elie

The courses don't immediately come to mind for many travelling golfers when thinking of Fife or S Carolina etc

With the exception of Gleneagles, these are courses very high on my Favourite 50 list...and Gleneagles would be if it wasn't so expensive

Ciao

[David Davis]

Ran,


That's a lot of work to put such an interesting list together. Nicely done.


A few questions:


1. Are you going to defend it and some of the placements?
2. Is it a growing list?
3. Have you played the list in it's entirety?
4. I will take it easy on you and only defend my local area or I'd be busy all night. De Eindhovensche Golf Club could fit better into your list, Harry Colt, fast and firm, width, carry your own bag (in fact no caddies) great atmosphere and loads of fun. Just saying...they hvae uped there game since most all of you have been to NL. Especially you Ran.    Though we expect to see you soon.

[Phil McDade]

I like the list and I like the criteria, but the two really don't seem to go together.  My opinion is based largely on the inclusion of so many highly exclusive (and in some cases, exclusionary) US courses.  While I recognize few (if any) of the courses listed meet all of the criteria, it is difficult (for me) to reconcile the 'custodian' concept with many of these clubs.

Brian:


This is an interesting point, one worth a few more thoughts. #88 on the list is Milwaukee CC here in Wisconsin. It's certainly the most exclusive private club in the state (to join), and one that it's even tough to get on as a guest (a sometimes-poster here related a story after he joined a pretty well-regarded private club in Wisconsin. The head pro told him, if you want to play any other private course in the state, just let me know, and I can provide you a reciprocal letter. Then, as an aside, he said: Except Milwaukee CC. They really don't do that.) So, yes, Milwaukee CC is high on the exclusive/exclusion list.


But they are wonderful stewards of their course -- arguably the best in the state (well, not much argument from me), and improving in recent years with work done by Renaissance. It's a tough test, but pretty exhilarating, from all reports, in part because it sits on great land and topography. The golf there is challenging, but not overbearing I'm guessing from a member's playing perspective. They are closely connected to the USGA, and have on occasion hosted major national tournaments. When I was there for several days during the U.S. Mid-Am about a decade ago, the membership to a person could not have been more accommodating to me -- just a guy off the street interested in golf architecture -- and many spoke proudly and quite knowingly about their course. They have a serious caddy program, and one gets the sense that walking is encouraged there. And it's a vigorous walk -- not onerous like Erin Hills (with its dumb and forced transitions between green and tee), but one that has a journey-like feel to it and travails over rumpled land. And the views of the river!


I'm not sure there is a more exclusive place to play in Wisconsin. I also can't think of a better steward of the game, and of their course, in this state than Milwaukee CC.

[Kalen Braley]

I would think a place like Wine Valley would be a better candidate for "guardian" status.


High quality golfing experience for a fraction of the price of these others.  My buddy and I played 45 holes about 5 years ago for $80 each out the door. Sure it wasn't peak season (October as I recall), but the course was in great shape and we had a blast.

[Thomas Dai]

Mulranny and/or Welshpool would make fine additions over the next couple of years to bring the total up to 148 and/or 149!
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

To me the biggest criticism Ran is going to face is where are the public golf courses or where is a place like Bethpage (the mowing lines exclude it as he writes in the pre-amble to the piece)?  I do know high grass or tightness is a factor. Ran lambasted me for hearing that Deal has allowed high grasses in spots of late as well as gulp allowing some busloads of hordes of foreign golfers for $$$ (that is conjecture, I've never seen that but society play is up there I believe).. The high grass at Deal  is because English Nature has asked them to allow a place for the larks to mate/live as they were endangered in losing them (this is what I was told).  Larks are part of the experience there as both Darwin and Sir Guy Campbell have opined on their songs while playing Deal.  Also I was told by an old member (just like in a PG Woodhouse story) a very true thing, when the weather is bad and the larks come out at Deal, the sun will come out in 20 minutes.. I can say i've seen that happen on half a dozen rounds..  I still can't see how Sandwich is up so high and Deal behind it.  But many (Arble/Tom D) will argue about that as sour grapes and me being a Deal homer..

Tuco:


Yes, you're a Deal homer.  Which is fine, since you admit it.  I'll get back there, someday.


Meanwhile, look at the other courses on this list and tell me Bethpage Black fits the bill.  I don't think that omission is just about high grass.  They traded in their custodian status to chase big tournaments, which puts them higher up on other lists, but lower on this one.

[PCCraig]

In my old age  I've found myself more interested in seeking out unique golf experiences as opposed to making sure I play all of the highly ranked &/or more exclusive clubs. Given my ability to travel for golf is so limited now, if I am going to take the time away from home it's going to be for something I can't get at home!

Therefore, I enjoyed Ran's list as it seems to put a premium on the overall experience and it doesn't help that Ran and I appear to have similar tastes....or maybe after 15 years on this website I've just acquired Ran's tastes?   

It's very neat to see White Bear YC as high as it is on the list, having played with Ran last fall when he saw it for the first time. Most guests will tell you how much they enjoyed themselves but be more critical at a later date, so its neat to see Ran was very honest with his initial feedback of the course/club. It is certainly in great company on the list! 

[Noel Freeman]

To me the biggest criticism Ran is going to face is where are the public golf courses or where is a place like Bethpage (the mowing lines exclude it as he writes in the pre-amble to the piece)?  I do know high grass or tightness is a factor. Ran lambasted me for hearing that Deal has allowed high grasses in spots of late as well as gulp allowing some busloads of hordes of foreign golfers for $$$ (that is conjecture, I've never seen that but society play is up there I believe).. The high grass at Deal  is because English Nature has asked them to allow a place for the larks to mate/live as they were endangered in losing them (this is what I was told).  Larks are part of the experience there as both Darwin and Sir Guy Campbell have opined on their songs while playing Deal.  Also I was told by an old member (just like in a PG Woodhouse story) a very true thing, when the weather is bad and the larks come out at Deal, the sun will come out in 20 minutes.. I can say i've seen that happen on half a dozen rounds..  I still can't see how Sandwich is up so high and Deal behind it.  But many (Arble/Tom D) will argue about that as sour grapes and me being a Deal homer..

Tuco:


Yes, you're a Deal homer.  Which is fine, since you admit it.  I'll get back there, someday.


Meanwhile, look at the other courses on this list and tell me Bethpage Black fits the bill.  I don't think that omission is just about high grass.  They traded in their custodian status to chase big tournaments, which puts them higher up on other lists, but lower on this one.

Deal Homer? No apologies here, I'd be buried in the Valley of Inglorious Security although I think Ran is still chili dipping there so maybe the vegetation is sparse..


I'm wondering if the nomenclature here is wrong.. Stewards maybe vs. Custodians... I can see how some think a custodian of the game cannot be elitist etc or very private.. A steward can hold the soul of the game but maybe not be the care-taker behind it.


I mean, TD, are you here if Sterling Farms was not a custodian of this game?  And we are talking G. Cornish here, someone we can say definitively as a Johnny Appleseed custodial patriarch even if he was not a steward like Tillie or CB Macdonald..


I dunno, feel free to critique.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

A few of you would do well to read the opening paragraph where he lists reasons for the exclusions of Bethpage and Prairie Dunes, among others.

Reading comprehension was not my strong point on the ACT, nor was anything else for that matter  Thanks Kyle

I still think you have more room there than Ran gives it credit, other than a few of the par 3s.

[Kalen Braley]

Just double checked, didn't see Pasatiempo on the list.


Which criteria does it not fit?  Not the easiest walk I suppose, but in many ways it surely captures the soul of the game...especially the brilliance of that back 9.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Well done, a list I'd consider playing.  Only 101 to go!

[Tom_Doak]

I'm wondering if the nomenclature here is wrong.. Stewards maybe vs. Custodians... I can see how some think a custodian of the game cannot be elitist etc or very private.. A steward can hold the soul of the game but maybe not be the care-taker behind it.


I mean, TD, are you here if Sterling Farms was not a custodian of this game?  And we are talking G. Cornish here, someone we can say definitively as a Johnny Appleseed custodial patriarch even if he was not a steward like Tillie or CB Macdonald..

Honestly, when I first saw the title I thought it was going to be a list of people, not courses.  And yes, Mr. Cornish would have been on that kind of list were he still alive.  I've never confirmed it but someone once told me his fee to design the course in 1970 was $1000 - or $2000 if they wanted him to supervise the construction!


For sure, I'm not here [or anywhere in golf] were it not for the Stamford public golf system - and as we both know I might have quit the game entirely had I been forced to play Hubbard Heights!  Sterling Farms had the advantage of being walking distance to my house when we were finished.  But I think Ran is trying to make a distinction between the game/sport of golf, and all of the traditions he considers to be important features of "the game of golf".

[Peter Pallotta]

IMO: that a quality golf course exists, and that it serves golfers (it matters not how many) and honours/reflects the spirit of the game and of its fields of play, is enough to qualify it for custodian status. That I may never get to play it, that millions of us may never get to play it, seems to me completely besides the point. Such a golf course has inherent value, independent certainly of how it might benefit me. The alternative is to take the kind of utilitarian ethos/approach that has lead to so much mediocrity in so many areas of life, including golf.

[Tom_Doak]

IMO: that a quality golf course exists, and that it serves golfers (it matters not how many) and honours/reflects the spirit of the game and of its fields of play, is enough to qualify it for custodian status. That I may never get to play it, that millions of us may never get to play it, seems to me completely besides the point. Such a golf course has inherent value, independent certainly of how it might benefit me. The alternative is to take the kind of utilitarian ethos/approach that has lead to so much mediocrity in so many areas of life, including golf.

I was talking with a documentary filmmaker about this issue just yesterday.  So many people want to write off courses that are very private, based on the "tree falling in the forest" question, and some jealousy that they will never be able to get there.


But, in very few cases is it actually true that you will never be allowed to play a course, if you have a sincere interest in doing so.  I started writing letters to clubs when I was 18-19 years old and had no connections in the golf business whatsoever -- and in the first year I was welcomed with open arms at places like Seminole, Merion, LACC, and SFGC.  Of course, not everyone can write as good a letter as I could when I was 19, but there are some very nice people behind some of those closed doors.  And they do take the traditions of the game much more seriously than the run of the mill club, in part, because they can afford to!


The only course on Ran's list that really shouldn't be there on this basis is Ardfin.  I know he loved it - he gave it a 9 on the Doak Scale - but I suspect the only reason he gained access to the course was so he could give them a high score.  [Well, that and he is old friends with the designer.]  That these ultra-private one-man courses open their doors to raters, and pretty much nobody else, is a little sleazy.  I don't think it qualifies them as Custodians of the Game.