[John Kavanaugh]

Not to go all old man on you people but Milenials are ruining the world. The idea of giving in to ADD addled faux golfers who want to purchase iHoles from their iGolf accounts is scary as hell. 12 holes is just the start. This ends, at best, with single hole courses flanked by selfie stations, fish taco stands and craft beer fountains. In other words...TopGolf.

[Scott Champion]

Old Tom, the millennial. What was he thinking laying out that course to host the first dozen Opens! 12 holes was part of the start. And can be part of the future..

[MikeJones]

I think 18 holes of golf has had a good run but I can see in the future, more and more nine hole competitions taking place for club golfers mainly due to time constraints of a modern family lifestyle. I also see 72 hole strokeplay events going the way of the cricket test match in that there will be reduced interest and consequently less money involved with quick shootout style events taking over.


I hope I'm wrong but looking at how rapidly the social media and streaming delivery side of sports is evolving I think it will be sooner rather than later.

[John Kavanaugh]

The beauty of dying is that you don't have to live your life in the future.

[Thomas Dai]

Many a sport/game has moved to a shorter version or has a mainstream shorter option. 20-20 cricket being the obvious one but rugby-7s has become a lot more popular and there’s a shorter version of snooker (with less reds).

Golf may be a traditionally slow to change activity but time and money effects almost everything sometime or another.
Lots of folks I now are bored with 72-hole 4-day Pro Tournaments and no longer watch much or very little.
What’s the impact of this going to be down the line on TV ratings and advertising and the flow of money within and without the game? Plus the usually highlighted factors such as water and land use in a world where population levels are ever-increasing?
Crystal ball time. Look ahead 25-50 years.
Atb

[Jeff_Brauer]

Monarch Dunes 12 hole course (Pacuzzo and Pate) seems to be always full, and we had a blast playing it, so much so another group thought we were drunk.  That, and my wife and I often quitting after 12 holes opened my eyes to this potential


Want to speed play?  Cut holes by a third, which by inference also cuts out the championship tees in favor of players tees at reasonable distance.  Besides, who doesn't want to go to the office Monday and brag about shooting a 68? (without mentioning where you played, LOL)


I don't know about a 12 hole "standard" in a world where "standards" seem to be declining.  But a few have built them as the best possible solution to their situations, and I think the green light has come on for developers to consider this as an option.  It just needs to be a viable alternate.  More choices, more variety has to be a good thing for golf overall, I think.

[Kalen Braley]

While I agree that 12 sounds interesting on some levels...


I just can't see any practical way this happens, especially considering how few new golf courses are being built today.  Would you be the first one to risk doing this?  Even converting an existing crammed 18 holer into a "better" 12 holer would be pricey and perhaps require a complete redesign and build.


Perhaps in some type of post apocalyptic setting a few hundred years in the future...(or sooner). 

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think it will happen sooner than you think.  All it takes is a struggling course, and a developer looking for a 60 acre site near a green belt.  If you can carve out 6 contiguous holes, voila, a 12 hole course.


The Monarch Dunes course came about similarly.  Built by the developer and originally going to be 9 hole addition (or maybe 18, then they got greedy) 12 holes made sense as a compromise of golf frontage, available land, etc.

[Edward Glidewell]

I'm just not sure how many people would be interested in a 12 hole golf course as something to play regularly. Plenty of people on this site, of course, but among the general public? I know a handful of guys who only play golf 5-10 times a year and 9 holes is a non-starter for them. If they're playing golf they want to play 18.

I personally wouldn't want to play a 12 hole course regularly. Whenever I play 9 holes, it feels lacking. Of course it's better than no golf at all, but something is missing. Playing a 9 hole course twice to make 18 doesn't really work either since I'm playing the same holes twice rather than seeing 18 distinct holes. I know it's entirely a construct born from always playing 18 holes (i.e. there's nothing inherent about 18 holes that makes it enough golf), but it's still there.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I just believe, granted, with no real proof, that Millennials give no respect to tradition, which will accelerate the rate of change in golf.  Gangsomes, 12 holes, relaxed rules of golf, maybe new games and match types modelled somehow after their video games.  Who knows, just a gut feel.

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,


Other than developing a really cool piece of land, I just don't see whats intrinsically different over a 9 holer.  I get people not being able to play 18 with time commitments, but is 3 extra holes really a difference maker?

[Jeff_Brauer]

I don't know.  As I age, 12 holes seems about perfect now, as I tire a bit and lose what little swing I have playing through to 18.  Maybe in a few more years, I will prefer 9, then 6, then 3, as I have seen with other senior golfers.  They play as many as they can, go home, nap, drink beer or whiskey, have some dinner, go to bed.  Rinse, lather, repeat the next day!


Or maybe, its just building 18 hole courses that return a few times.  I Know when I worked at Killian and Nugent on the grounds of Kemper Lakes, we got used to playing after work, until dark and the actual amount of holes never mattered, and we played match play (which I liked).  I also recall some guy in southern Illinois calling us, only to go down and find he had a 12 hole course.  Our first reaction was "you can't do that" and he said, hell yes, its my course and I can do what I want.


So, maybe the 12 hole number is just sort of ingrained in me.  I have no real method to back up my thoughts that it might prove popular in the years ahead.

[Edward Glidewell]

I just believe, granted, with no real proof, that Millennials give no respect to tradition, which will accelerate the rate of change in golf.  Gangsomes, 12 holes, relaxed rules of golf, maybe new games and match types modelled somehow after their video games.  Who knows, just a gut feel.

The guys I mentioned who want to play 18 and have no interest in 9 are in their early 30s -- technically still Millennials, but probably not really the people you're talking about.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ed,


I have a son who played college golf, business exec on the rise and has always joined a club, very traditional.  I have two daughters who dabble (and step son and grand sons) and they are casual golfers who probably wouldn't care about tradition, just want to go hit it around with friends.  So, I understand the traditional type, but figure golf course do something with its excess course capacity time to attract the others.  Again, no real science to my thoughts, and my experience may be a lot different than what is "really out there."


All in all, I don't see why, say 10% of courses in populated areas couldn't sell off 6-9 holes for development, building in their after work market and leave the rest at traditional 18 holes.  Not talking about converting everything, nor making 12 a new standard.

[V. Kmetz]

It'a fine and often a joy of this site that a thread goes galloping off into the cul de sac-cum-rabbit hole, but the last page of posts has gotten far afield...it wasn't inviting speculation on whether this will happen now, or how it will happen, or how it will save the golf business or the deleterious exhibits of the insouciant, ubiquitous "millenial" (loathsome as they are) to render the game into a flash mob...


What was asked, was merely what sorts of good, bad or different things do you think would have been happening IF 12 HOLES WERE ALREADY the canonical number...


TD: I think the fascination with 12 moslyt owes to Prestwick and the beginnings of modern Championship golf, maybe a little bit to the cultural ubiquity of 12, and maybe a little bit to the idea that it seems a good "fictional compromise" had one been made or proposed today to tackle some of the recreational challenges in sustainable course building,


JK - You're endnote comment., "I miss albums" proves that an adversary occasionally hits a sweet spot...albums were good...you owned it...you could use it as you see fit...you looked at the liner notes and art tableaux intended for your experience of listening to it and following along...there was a machinery to playing them...all very un-disposable things that the current model lacks.


cheers  vk

[Matthew Petersen]

I think it will happen sooner than you think.  All it takes is a struggling course, and a developer looking for a 60 acre site near a green belt.  If you can carve out 6 contiguous holes, voila, a 12 hole course.


The Monarch Dunes course came about similarly.  Built by the developer and originally going to be 9 hole addition (or maybe 18, then they got greedy) 12 holes made sense as a compromise of golf frontage, available land, etc.

The Challenge course at Monarch Dunes, however, is not really unlike the Sandbox (17 holes) at Sand Valley or the Preserve (13-holes) or Dormie (12 holes) at Ballyneal. The key being that there is at least one other regulation 18-hole course that drives business.


The Challenge Course is great and seems to do good business. But I'm not at all sure if it's a model that can sustain independent from a "traditional" course. Clearly no one else is yet, because there's no evidence of anyone trying it.

[Tom_Doak]

TD: I think the fascination with 12 mostly owes to Prestwick and the beginnings of modern Championship golf, maybe a little bit to the cultural ubiquity of 12, and maybe a little bit to the idea that it seems a good "fictional compromise" had one been made or proposed today to tackle some of the recreational challenges in sustainable course building,

VK:  I get that.  The funny part is that those 12 holes at Prestwick played right over the top of each other, with multiple crossovers and a couple of greens that were used more than once ... as a model it was as unsuited to the long term growth of the game as any you could find.  In general, it bothers me that golfers get so fixated on numbers.

[Mark Kiely]

Clearly no one else is yet, because there's no evidence of anyone trying it.

There's a 12-hole standalone course by Cary Bickler in Yucca Valley, CA called Hawk's Landing. Opened in 2015. Designed to play as six, 12 or 18 holes. (I haven't played it yet.)

[Mike Wagner]

The # of holes isn't the problem.  It's the new standard of pace.  I just played 18 holes in 2 hours.  If people just played in 3.5 hours, it'd all be good.

[Kalen Braley]

Clearly no one else is yet, because there's no evidence of anyone trying it.

There's a 12-hole standalone course by Cary Bickler in Yucca Valley, CA called Hawk's Landing. Opened in 2015. Designed to play as six, 12 or 18 holes. (I haven't played it yet.)

Mark,


Its got great reviews and looks to contain two 6 hole loops from what I can tell from Google Maps.  Very cool!

[Sean_A]

TD: I think the fascination with 12 mostly owes to Prestwick and the beginnings of modern Championship golf, maybe a little bit to the cultural ubiquity of 12, and maybe a little bit to the idea that it seems a good "fictional compromise" had one been made or proposed today to tackle some of the recreational challenges in sustainable course building,

VK:  I get that.  The funny part is that those 12 holes at Prestwick played right over the top of each other, with multiple crossovers and a couple of greens that were used more than once ... as a model it was as unsuited to the long term growth of the game as any you could find.  In general, it bothers me that golfers get so fixated on numbers.

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

Twelve is just such a beautiful number.


You can divide it by 4, 3 , and 2. People have counted in dozens and fractions/multiples thereof for millennia - long before the Romans and their stupid decimals!


This discussion should not be limited to golf courses.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal

http://www.dozenalsociety.org.uk/

http://www.dozenal.org/


Under the far more logical dozenal system a 360 yard golf hole becomes a 300 yard golf hole. What's not to like?

 


 

[Thomas Dai]

Nomination of a current 18-hole course that without any changes to any of the holes or to the overall routing would immediately be a great 12-hole course - St Enodoc’s main course - holes 1-9 plus holes 16-18.
Atb

[John Kavanaugh]

If an experience lasts longer than the time you can hold your breath you may want to allow time to take one.

[George Pazin]

VK:  I get that.  The funny part is that those 12 holes at Prestwick played right over the top of each other, with multiple crossovers and a couple of greens that were used more than once ... as a model it was as unsuited to the long term growth of the game as any you could find.  In general, it bothers me that golfers get so fixated on numbers.

As long as you can "box the compass" on the par 3s, you should be fine!


I think most numbers in golf border on meaningless. Or at least, they are often misused and misinterpreted.

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