A Mammoth Question

[Kyle Harris]

Edward Glidewell,


You may be underestimating the subset of 20 markers for whom the limiting factor is putting or distance. I care not for the golfer that does little to at least develop some sort of consistency, but there are 20-handicap players that are consistent ball strikers.

[Tom_Doak]

Edward Glidewell,


You may be underestimating the subset of 20 markers for whom the limiting factor is putting or distance. I care not for the golfer that does little to at least develop some sort of consistency, but there are 20-handicap players that are consistent ball strikers.

Of course!  There are also a bunch of them who are 70-75 years old and only hit it 180 yards.

[Edward Glidewell]

Edward Glidewell,


You may be underestimating the subset of 20 markers for whom the limiting factor is putting or distance. I care not for the golfer that does little to at least develop some sort of consistency, but there are 20-handicap players that are consistent ball strikers.

Of course!  There are also a bunch of them who are 70-75 years old and only hit it 180 yards.

I'm sure these players exist, but I've never met one! All the high handicappers I've played with don't really have a significant distance issue -- and while I have played with guys in their 70s who don't hit it more than 160-170 off the tee, every single one of them was better than a 20 because they were so straight. I think the worst was around 17. To be fair, these players are also playing from senior tees at 5600 yards or something... they'd obviously have more problems if they had to play from 6400 or some longer distance.


I've always thought this website dramatically overestimates the percentage of high handicappers who have a distance/putting issue as opposed to a consistent ballstriking issue, but I could be completely wrong. We'd need some sort of huge study to know for sure -- but I'm not even sure how helpful that would be, because my guess is that the type of consistent ballstriking high handicapper players are the ones more likely to actually HAVE a handicap. There are huge numbers of players who play 5-10 times a year who don't even have an official handicap (including ALL of the 20+ type players I know and occasionally play with).


Of course, from an architecture standpoint (i.e. the purpose of this site), I can understand why they'd essentially be ignored -- there's no real way to design for someone whose ball can end up anywhere on any given swing. It's not really something worth considering.

[Ian Mackenzie]

 (Tom D said:)
"So, I ask:  if he is NOT TRYING to reward position off the tee at all, are the fans of Mammoth Dunes okay with that?  I suspect not, as Ian M tried hard to describe a strategic value to driving left or right that most of the rest of us are not seeing."



I really did not have to try that hard as I was merely recounting recent experiences.
We played from the Black tees and we had good caddies who showed us where the "power slots" were on many holes.


OK, so I will make yet another gross generalization without the use of a T-square, protractor, laser range-finder or topo map...;-)..


First, the course was fun as hell to play.
Second, hitting certain (fairway) spots from the tee DEFINITELY gave the player a distance/position advantage on approach.


(#9 comes to mid as well. I went down left side, as instructed, while my partners missed it and went right. My tee shot kicked forward and I had 8 iron into the green while others had 5/6.)


Never was this more obvious than on 14 and 15 where I went birdie/birdie as i hit the ideal spots on the fairway and was rewarded with an additional 30-40 yards.


I also agree that there was close to "zero tension" on tee shots and I hit driver on 11/14 holes.
Holes 10 and 11 gave me pause, both doglegs left. #11: Dogleg left par 5 of 547 yards. Had to think for sure from tee, but it played shorter than stated 547 as I hit 4 wood/21 degree hybrid over the green and I am in my 50s.


Definitely NOT a fader's course...;-) But, if you didnt see the advantage to certain parts of the FWs, then either you weren't looking or simply lack the ability to hit them...

[Peter Pallotta]

Re higher handicappers:
I could see the problems & puzzles a golf course presented long before I had the skill-set to solve them, or at least to try.
It's enjoyable now to be able to try; but even when I couldn't, it was far more interesting to have those problems & puzzles than it was not to have them.
Which is to say: I think the best architectural approach to satisfying the high handicapper is to present problems that he/she can side-step (at a modest cost), and puzzles that can be solved in several different ways (some more efficient than others); while the worst architectural approach is to simply not have many meaningful problems or puzzles to solve in the first place.

[Kalen Braley]

I have to agree with Edward here.

As a 20 capper myself, other than the occasional elderly player, i've yet to meet another 20 who isn't wild or very inconsistent off the tee.  In large part this is the reason why they are 20 as golf is a game that in general gets easier the closer you are to the hole...at least in terms of smaller score variance.

[V_Halyard]

It's strange as I think DMK can build some really cool greens. A great example from him would be Huntsman Springs.

I'm sure MD will be a huge hit with most of the guests. But overall its a bit of a "dumb blonde" to me. Looks pretty but the experience is a bit shallow in strategy.

Ha, I'm going to try not to get us both in trouble but I think with the right makeup...

Ok, back on-topic, with grow-in and the inevitable tweaks, maturity, stimp, tee and pin Placement, I am guessing
Mammoth can be tailored to bear teeth or play with resort passivity. DMK was pretty clear that it is purpose built to deliver big fun for a wide variety of golfers, so has generally been configured to succeed by delivering Big Fun rather than chase a US Open. The teeth may in there but remain hidden from view. Transparently, everybody I have taken generally wants to go around again so it delivers on its core mission.

[V_Halyard]

I have not played Mammoth Dunes, but many of the comments on this string seem to contradict many praised aspects of playing the Old Course at St. Andrews.  In modern terms, the same has been said about Old Macdonald.

The missing piece in this discussion is whether David Kidd was trying for that or not.  I have seen a couple of interviews with him about the course and about his new emphasis on fun, and I do not recall him saying that he is trying to reward position off the tee, though I could have missed it.

So, I ask:  if he is NOT TRYING to reward position off the tee at all, are the fans of Mammoth Dunes okay with that?  I suspect not, as Ian M tried hard to describe a strategic value to driving left or right that most of the rest of us are not seeing.

We have some more detailed chats with DMK that go a bit deeper pointing out that the majority of mid/high handicappers can have fun from the proper tees and lower handicappers trying to go low, positioning matters.   Low handicappers and target shooters might argue that with the width, getting the position can be a bit easier for them, and based on pin positioning, funneling makes it easier for them as well. That said, there are angry pin positions available on most of the greens so in some cases, I would pose that it comes down to the setup of the day.  But DMK would agree that he did not spec the design to attract a US Open.

[JC Jones]

[/size]There ain't nothing wrong with a golf course that is fun to play.[size=78%]

[Jay Mickle]

If the consensus is that the course is fun to play, can it be a bad golf course?
[/size]If par comes too easily perhaps the goal should be "59"

[/size]From the 6000 yard tees I found the centerline bunkering required me to hit good shots. Perhaps I didn't realize that I could have sprayed the ball anywhere with similar end results. For me it was great fun to play.
[/size]A stark contrast from having played Blackwolf Run 2 days prior, spending inordinate amounts of time looking for playing partners 12 lost balls on the first 9 holes.

[Michael Whitaker]

I have not played Mammoth Dunes, but many of the comments on this string seem to contradict many praised aspects of playing The Old Course at St. Andrews.  In modern terms, the same has been said about Old Macdonald.

The missing piece in this discussion is whether David Kidd was trying for that or not.  I have seen a couple of interviews with him about the course and about his new emphasis on fun, and I do not recall him saying that he is trying to reward position off the tee, though I could have missed it.

I think Mammoth Dunes definitely was designed to reward position off the tee. One feature it has in common with The Old Course is that it appears easier (less complicated?) than it really is on first play. To illustrate, please take a look at this video about MD's 5th hole design narrated by DMK: https://youtu.be/v9G36mNRVZI.

As Morgan says above, there are multiple options available on each hole providing every level of player a chance to either be challenged or "welcomed" along the way. That's why the "fun" handle is being assigned to this course by so many different players. IMO that is a good thing.

[Tim Passalacqua]

I have not played Mammoth Dunes, but many of the comments on this string seem to contradict many praised aspects of playing The Old Course at St. Andrews.  In modern terms, the same has been said about Old Macdonald.

The missing piece in this discussion is whether David Kidd was trying for that or not.  I have seen a couple of interviews with him about the course and about his new emphasis on fun, and I do not recall him saying that he is trying to reward position off the tee, though I could have missed it.

I think Mammoth Dunes definitely was designed to reward position off the tee. One feature it has in common with The Old Course is that it appears easier (less complicated?) than it really is on first play. To illustrate, please take a look at this video about MD's 5th hole design narrated by DMK: https://youtu.be/v9G36mNRVZI.

As Morgan says above, there are multiple options available on each hole providing every level of player a chance to either be challenged or "welcomed" along the way. That's why the "fun" handle is being assigned to this course by so many different players. IMO that is a good thing.

That video is awesome and gives you a perfect glimpse into all the options and fun of Mammoth Dunes!!!!

[Doug Wright]

On the Ballyneal thread, Ben Sims aptly says “I find almost every shot I’ve hit [at Ballyneal] to be compelling and fun. It asks plenty of me from a challenge perspective, but never so much that I’m not enjoying the round.” Is that the issue being debated on this thread—not enough challenge at Mammoth Dunes (coincidentally like the discussion in the recently reprised “Is Gamble Sands too easy?” thread)?

I suspect, however, that challenge is in the eye of the beholder. What may be boring for a long, straight-driving flatbelly may be a big challenge (but still fun) for a less than straight-driving 60-something 10 handicapper. It seems that if the architect satisfies the Ben Sims test for all (or most) players, he or she has been successful.

[Mark Mammel]

"Golf should be a pleasure not a penance."Donald Ross

[Kalen Braley]

On the Ballyneal thread, Ben Sims aptly says “I find almost every shot I’ve hit [at Ballyneal] to be compelling and fun. It asks plenty of me from a challenge perspective, but never so much that I’m not enjoying the round.” Is that the issue being debated on this thread—not enough challenge at Mammoth Dunes (coincidentally like the discussion in the recently reprised “Is Gamble Sands too easy?” thread)?

I suspect, however, that challenge is in the eye of the beholder. What may be boring for a long, straight-driving flatbelly may be a big challenge (but still fun) for a less than straight-driving 60-something 10 handicapper. It seems that if the architect satisfies the Ben Sims test for all (or most) players, he or she has been successful.

Doug,


Excellent post.  And even a 10 is much better than the average golfer.  For the typical 15-20, Gamble Sands is likely plenty challenging even if its not as much for one who regularly shoots in the 70s.  And I thought that was one of the basic premises of what GCA is supposed to be all about...building interesting golf courses for the masses, aka average joes, not the bomb and gouge flat bellies...

[ward peyronnin]

I liked Mammoth Dunes a lot; it was differnt!

[William_G]

love Mammoth Dunes!

[Jud_T]

Anyone who's seen me play knows that width is a good thing.  I may be biased, but I significantly preferred Sand Valley to Mammoth Dunes.  Granted I played MD before the full 18 was officially open to the public and it wasn't in quite the same playing condition as SV, but on greens, aesthetic, shaping and subtlety, personally I don't see it as a close call.  Visually some will be enthralled with the scale and beauty of MD, but as far as a fun, strategic round and really interesting short game options, I'd probably split 10 rounds 8-2 in favor of SV.

[ward peyronnin]

Kyle
Is there some symmetry to a designer who is so consciuos of negative space to employ the term anti-clockwise?
For a great treatment of negative space refer to the grand old landscape artist of 20thC Europe, Russel Page.
Best Ward

[William_G]

as of today Mammoth is more popular as per the caddies
Mammoth also starts and finishes at the clubhouse perfect!
SV starts and returns at each 9 at Craig's Porch, very nice
it's an even 5/5 for our group maybe with a lean toward Mammoth
another win for Mike Keiser
this place is killer, at least for May-October
well done! all golfers should come and play
cheers

[Ryan Farrow]

Ward, William,


You guys should discuss your opinions, there is not character limit here! If either of you have the time I would be curious to know what exactly you like about MD.

[V_Halyard]

Given there is much (healthy) discussion and conjecture with regard to David/Ryan/Casey's work, below please find a link to a short we produced with Josh Sens and GOLF, interviewing David. It may not answer everything but it is a quick clip that answers some of the "What was he thinking" questions in his own words.

No subscription needed to view.
https://www.golf.com/tour-news/video/2018/06/27/midwest-marvel-inside-mammoth-dunes