[James Brown]

North Berwick if you have to chose only 1. 

[Jay Mickle]

If you chose North Berwick no one will likely tell you that you should have played Kingsbarns instead.

[Stephen Northrup]

If the choice is Kingsbarns once or NB twice, it’s definitely NB since 36 beats 18 especially when it’s 36 at a place like NB.


And while Kingsbarns may not be a great value, it’s an excellent course with views of the sea from nearly every hole and a great variety of holes to boot. I went expecting an “American interpretation of a links course” but it feels like it’s been there for a century or more.

[Jud_T]

Definitely skip it IMO.  Not a close call.

[Mark Pearce]

I went expecting an “American interpretation of a links course” but it feels like it’s been there for a century or more.

Really?  That's not how it struck me at all.

[Sean_A]

I went expecting an “American interpretation of a links course” but it feels like it’s been there for a century or more.

Really?  That's not how it struck me at all.

There is a certain manufactured look to the course, I think because of trying to meld the different tiers of the property.  Maybe time will rough the place up a bit.  To a lesser degree, Castle Stuart suffers the same deal.  That said, both properties are extremely attractive to play the game so worrying about them being a bit too posh looking is a serious 1st world golfing problem.  All the new links I have played have the same theme of looking a bit too posh.  As I say, probably over time things will rough up.   

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Kingsbarns is a very good course where I found only the 11th as a hole feeling out of place along with the last 100 yards of the 18th which make for a really bad and slightly schizophrenic finish to an otherwise good course. Where it is a let down if you are looking to play Scottish links golf is with the atmosphere and the value for money.

[Marty Bonnar]

All I’m trying to say is that if you want get a ‘fully-rounded’ experience of Scottish golf, then it’s important to at least SEE places like KB, Castle Stuart, The Duke’s, The Castle (and probably Dumbarnie when it’s finished).
They’re all interesting as modern takes on traditional golf and of how today’s designers are paying homage, updating, rethinking, etc the ‘old dead guys’ work.
I, for one, find it fascinating to compare and contrast the work, seeing where the ‘new live guys’ are taking classical themes and using them to explore possibilities today.
I’d happily admit that for me it’s more about the crux of the architecture than it is about whether an old place is better or worse than a new one and vice versa.


F.

[Jon Wiggett]

Marty,


in total agreement with you.


Jon

[Niall C]

Steve

I agree with Mark that KB looks very modern as does CS. For a start the scale of those courses is significantly larger than older traditional courses and they both to an extent look manufactured as Sean says. KB though IMO is more successful in creating a “natural” landscape that the course flows through. You made an interesting comment though about seeing the sea from all the holes at KB. Do you think that counts for much ?

FBD

Fair comment on KB adding to a more rounded experience of Scottish golf, however for the fully-rounded experience you refer to you would also have to add in a few nine holers (plus perhaps Shiskine), some sub 5,500 yard courses many of which would be in Glasgow or Edinburgh, some moorland tracts and perhaps the odd course playing half way round a hill and of course a basic muni.

I’m not sure though that that is what Ira is looking for.

Niall

[Marty Bonnar]

Steve

I agree with Mark that KB looks very modern as does CS. For a start the scale of those courses is significantly larger than older traditional courses and they both to an extent look manufactured as Sean says. KB though IMO is more successful in creating a “natural” landscape that the course flows through. You made an interesting comment though about seeing the sea from all the holes at KB. Do you think that counts for much ?

FBD

Fair comment on KB adding to a more rounded experience of Scottish golf, however for the fully-rounded experience you refer to you would also have to add in a few nine holers (plus perhaps Shiskine), some sub 5,500 yard courses many of which would be in Glasgow or Edinburgh, some moorland tracts and perhaps the odd course playing half way round a hill and of course a basic muni.

I’m not sure though that that is what Ira is looking for.

Niall

Agree 100%, Mr C.
I did think about adding a very similar comment.
Cheers,
M.

[Ryan Coles]

Seems strange arguing over what is typical or traditional Scottish golf. Clearly it doesn’t exist. The range of courses including the newbies is as vast and diverse as anywhere.


Those who just play the golf in front of them rather than fret about age or history would struggle to conclude that Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart are anything over than must plays and in the mix for the best dozen or so courses on offer.


The reasons for talking down KB and CS usually have little to do with Golf.


The Brits can’t get past the price.


The Overseas lot can’t get past that the courses are not old and quaint.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,


as with anything price is important and many of the top courses (not just modern ones) are very much over priced. When looking at the quality of a product price has to be a factor. I agree that KB and CS are courses that a player should play but then I would argue the same about Abernethy, Boat of Garten, Brora, The Kings & Queens, Kilspindie and many, many more.


When it comes to the GCA I would suggest the important thing is to look at what was achieved compared to the quality of the site. In this respect Brora, Golspie or Grantown are must sees where as Trump Aberdeen is most certainly not.


Jon

[Ryan Coles]

Ryan,


as with anything price is important and many of the top courses (not just modern ones) are very much over priced. When looking at the quality of a product price has to be a factor. I agree that KB and CS are courses that a player should play but then I would argue the same about Abernethy, Boat of Garten, Brora, The Kings & Queens, Kilspindie and many, many more.


When it comes to the GCA I would suggest the important thing is to look at what was achieved compared to the quality of the site. In this respect Brora, Golspie or Grantown are must sees where as Trump Aberdeen is most certainly not.


Jon

Yes money of course a factor, Brora and Boat of Garten score highly there. KB and CS both offer a replay greenfee which although difficult to justify measured against Brora etc, is worth it as a one and done imo.


I believe both KB and CS although both blessed with sea views etc both pass the test in your final paragraph.


Not played Trump Aberdeen and won’t unless a change in ownership so can’t comment on that one. (There we go, nothing to do with the Course in the ground again).

[Niall C]

I don't recall mentioning the cost of Mars bars. As far as I can recall, all my comments were aimed at the quality and character of the respective courses, with the latter being the nub of what I think Ira was enquiring about. To simply say the courses are good doesn't really help distinguish them to allow Ira to make an informed decision.


Niall

[Marty Bonnar]

So....
Is the only MUST PLAY in Scotland - TOC?
F.
PS That's MUST

[Ryan Coles]

I don't recall mentioning the cost of Mars bars. As far as I can recall, all my comments were aimed at the quality and character of the respective courses, with the latter being the nub of what I think Ira was enquiring about. To simply say the courses are good doesn't really help distinguish them to allow Ira to make an informed decision.


Niall

True. But then references to ‘character’ alone aren’t particularly illuminating either.


Scale is a good differentiation though. The Lundin’s and Leven’s etc are cramped in that respect. See the repeatedly references to Fore shouts whenever Crail is mentioned for example. Perhaps the claustrophobia adds to ‘character’? I don’t know.

[Mark Pearce]

So....
Is the only MUST PLAY in Scotland - TOC?
F.
PS That's MUST

I love TOC.  It's in my ten favourite/best courses I have ever played.  But is there such a thing as a must play? 

[Marty Bonnar]

So....
Is the only MUST PLAY in Scotland - TOC?
F.
PS That's MUST

I love TOC.  It's in my ten favourite/best courses I have ever played.  But is there such a thing as a must play?

Answering a question with another question. Bloody lawyers!
 

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,


as with anything price is important and many of the top courses (not just modern ones) are very much over priced. When looking at the quality of a product price has to be a factor. I agree that KB and CS are courses that a player should play but then I would argue the same about Abernethy, Boat of Garten, Brora, The Kings & Queens, Kilspindie and many, many more.


When it comes to the GCA I would suggest the important thing is to look at what was achieved compared to the quality of the site. In this respect Brora, Golspie or Grantown are must sees where as Trump Aberdeen is most certainly not.


Jon

Yes money of course a factor, Brora and Boat of Garten score highly there. KB and CS both offer a replay greenfee which although difficult to justify measured against Brora etc, is worth it as a one and done imo.


I believe both KB and CS although both blessed with sea views etc both pass the test in your final paragraph.


Not played Trump Aberdeen and won’t unless a change in ownership so can’t comment on that one. (There we go, nothing to do with the Course in the ground again).

Ryan,


too true.


My comments come mainly due to the supposed talking point of this site. Namely golf course architecture. There are those who seem to define this as meaning spectacular settings and land with lots of movement in it. It needs to be of a minimum length, have a minimum par & number of holes and of course be manicured within a hairs breadth of it's life.


For me it is how much the architect managed to get out of the land the course is laid over combined with the general rhythm/flow. Then I am also looking at how the course actually plays set against the intent of the architecture and finally I set it all against the cost.

When people ask about recommendations I try to do this based on these criteria.


Jon

[Matt MacIver]

MUST plays?  To me, that’s either drop everything, change your plans, pay up to go — because you somehow got access.  In the U.S. there’s probably five-ten in that category.  For the rest of the world since access isn’t a problem, its - you’re in-country and have 12 hours to kill - that’s a 4 hour round with four hour drive each way - rent some clubs and play.  For me that’s probably ~4 courses in Scotland, Ireland, U.K.  Maybe a few more. 

[BCrosby]

I went expecting an “American interpretation of a links course” but it feels like it’s been there for a century or more.

Really?  That's not how it struck me at all.

Agree.

[Kalen Braley]

As a reference point, I dug up these older threads.


Tom D seems to have a pretty high opinion of it.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57646.0.html


"I will start by saying that two of the best jobs of natural-looking earthmoving I've seen are at Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart.

From a different thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61603.msg1463679.html#msg1463679

"Very few architects would have taken such an aggressive approach to Kingsbarns ... designers and developers in the UK before that  never thought it was feasible to spend that sort of money on golf course construction.  I am in awe of what they accomplished.

[Stephen Northrup]

Steve

I agree with Mark that KB looks very modern as does CS. For a start the scale of those courses is significantly larger than older traditional courses and they both to an extent look manufactured as Sean says. KB though IMO is more successful in creating a “natural” landscape that the course flows through. You made an interesting comment though about seeing the sea from all the holes at KB. Do you think that counts for much ?

Niall, I don't think seeing the sea for nearly the entire round counts for much, but it's a nice change of pace from many of the other courses in the neighborhood, especially for those of us who don't live and play on or near the water. I would agree that KB feels more "natural" than CS, but the only holes on KB that felt somewhat "manufactured" to me were the 14th and certainly the 18th. And while the 18th was an uninspiring finish, there are plenty of outstanding links where the 18th is among the weakest holes on the course.

[Bill Brightly]

Here's the thing: when you play Kingsbarns, your group will say it was great. When you come off the 18th green at NB, your group will want to play it again. Any more questions?

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