Ballyneal is the best modern design on the planet. Discuss.

[Steve Lang]

You can't play Ballyneal without going to Ballyneal regardless of the fact you can play golf just about anywhere.

No doubt about that.  But, the type of golf people are talking about playing at Ballyneal as one of the reasons why Ballyneal is great, is not unique to Ballyneal.


It'd be nice to hear why, architecturally, Ballyneal is the greatest modern design in the world.  I have no doubt it is a very good golf course that is very fun to play (with the exception of Black Forest and Charlotte Golf Links, every Doak course I've played has been on the spectrum of good to phenomenal).  But so far I've heard that the width is awesome because it creates strategic decisions, but its not so wide that it sucks (like Mammoth Dunes) and that most people cant remember individual holes but they had fun playing the course.


Everything else is irrelevant.  Being a favorite place to go play golf and being the best modern design in the world aren't necessarily the same thing.

JC,   Yep to that last thought... we did the annual play at Black Forest, sans your fav country tunes, and though its as almost crappy as its been since rough cut out of the woods, hills, and meadows... its still a favorite though very far removed from its best presentation, as much fun hitting the ball as at Belvedere...


See ya next year at the Bel?  Bring the 10 yr old

[Tim Pitner]

Funny to think of all the clubs and courses spending so much money on renovations and restorations to move up in rankings when they could save a boatload and achieve better results just by scrapping their tee markers.

C'mon now, this is a straw man. I'm not that impressed by the no tee markers thing either, but that's not what makes Ballyneal a great course. The fact that it has 18 good to great holes makes it a fantastic course. Best modern? I don't know and don't particularly care. It belongs in the conversation. For me, it's a more consistent course than Pacific Dunes. PD has a few holes--say, 9, 12, 16 and 18--that I wouldn't call weak and do enjoy, but have some issues. It's really hard to identify a weaker hole at Ballyneal. And, with that said, I prefer PD because of the setting--the Oregon coast is pretty darned great-- surf and (links) turf. As good as prairie links can be, it's hard to top a similar, seaside course.

[John Kirk]

It'd be nice to hear why, architecturally, Ballyneal is the greatest modern design in the world.  I have no doubt it is a very good golf course that is very fun to play...Everything else is irrelevant.  Being a favorite place to go play golf and being the best modern design in the world aren't necessarily the same thing.

Here are a couple reasons why I consider Ballyneal an unusually good golf course:

1.  Most importantly, the greens and their immediate surroundings offer more legitimate options to play short game shots, than any course I've played, by a significant margin.  Since the course regularly offers a strange option to play a chip or putt, like rolling the ball up a mound or ridge directly behind a pin and letting the ball come back to the hole, you see shot trajectories (or paths) that are very unusual on a regular basis.  Therefore, the variety of shot paths is great here, and the reaction is generally that of delight and intrigue.  Like many of Tom Doak's courses, there are fewer gently breaking medium and long putts than the typical course, but those can regularly be found on holes #2, 4, 11, 14, and 18.

2.  Ballyneal has a remarkable stretch of long holes where a solid drive in the wrong part of the fairway can result in a blind second shot.  If you were hitting it solid but in the wrong spot, you could have a blind second on 7, 8, 9, 10 (the "Bowl of Mediocrity"), 12, 13, 14, 16 and 17.  As an older, straight hitter, I'll average maybe one or two blind second shots per round.

3.  Another essential feature is the firm turf.  Ballyneal plays really hot and fast, even compared to the courses at Bandon Dunes.  The excellent speed of the fairways, combined with above average wind speed that comes from two primary prevailing directions, allows the course to provide changing conditions on a round by round basis.  I am heading there today.  From Friday through Monday this weekend, the wind directions are forecast as NW, E, NE, SE at 8-11 mph.  The wind isn't blowing hard, but the course is harder with the less common north wind.

4.  Wind above 10-12 mph demands the thinking player to consider shot trajectory.  The fast turf enables low trajectory strategies such as chips, bump and run and other partial swing shots to minimize score.  This is essential to great golf as I understand it.

5.  I do not consider Ballyneal to be the best course for testing the player from uneven lies, but a player does deal with them on most shots.  Like most courses, there are far more uphill lies than downhill lies, and the player encounters few severe sidehill approach shots.

6.  One might also point to an imbalance in chipping strategies, since the putter is often the best choice for many short shots off the green.  You have to be a good wedge player from short grass to outperform a simple putt.  Bunker play is natural, difficult and excellent.


That's enough.  Thanks for your time.

[Tom_Doak]

Funny to think of all the clubs and courses spending so much money on renovations and restorations to move up in rankings when they could save a boatload and achieve better results just by scrapping their tee markers.

Yes, just think, I could have saved Merion $15 million !!

[John Kirk]

I didn't have sufficient time to edit this post, and I kind of messed up this part.  The bolding shows an improved explanation.

1.  Most importantly, the greens and their immediate surroundings offer more opportunities to play short game shots on two different lines, than any course I've played, by a significant margin.  Since the course regularly offers a strange option to play a chip or putt, like rolling the ball up a mound or ridge directly behind a pin and letting the ball come back to the hole, you regularly see unusual shot trajectories (or paths).  Therefore, the variety of shot paths is great here, and the reaction is generally that of delight and intrigue.  Like many of Tom Doak's courses, there are fewer gently breaking medium and long putts than the typical course, but those can regularly be found on holes #2, 4, 11, 14, and 18.

[JC Jones]

It'd be nice to hear why, architecturally, Ballyneal is the greatest modern design in the world.  I have no doubt it is a very good golf course that is very fun to play...Everything else is irrelevant.  Being a favorite place to go play golf and being the best modern design in the world aren't necessarily the same thing.

Here are a couple reasons why I consider Ballyneal an unusually good golf course:

1.  Most importantly, the greens and their immediate surroundings offer more legitimate options to play short game shots, than any course I've played, by a significant margin.  Since the course regularly offers a strange option to play a chip or putt, like rolling the ball up a mound or ridge directly behind a pin and letting the ball come back to the hole, you see shot trajectories (or paths) that are very unusual on a regular basis.  Therefore, the variety of shot paths is great here, and the reaction is generally that of delight and intrigue.  Like many of Tom Doak's courses, there are fewer gently breaking medium and long putts than the typical course, but those can regularly be found on holes #2, 4, 11, 14, and 18.

2.  Ballyneal has a remarkable stretch of long holes where a solid drive in the wrong part of the fairway can result in a blind second shot.  If you were hitting it solid but in the wrong spot, you could have a blind second on 7, 8, 9, 10 (the "Bowl of Mediocrity"), 12, 13, 14, 16 and 17.  As an older, straight hitter, I'll average maybe one or two blind second shots per round.

3.  Another essential feature is the firm turf.  Ballyneal plays really hot and fast, even compared to the courses at Bandon Dunes.  The excellent speed of the fairways, combined with above average wind speed that comes from two primary prevailing directions, allows the course to provide changing conditions on a round by round basis.  I am heading there today.  From Friday through Monday this weekend, the wind directions are forecast as NW, E, NE, SE at 8-11 mph.  The wind isn't blowing hard, but the course is harder with the less common north wind.

4.  Wind above 10-12 mph demands the thinking player to consider shot trajectory.  The fast turf enables low trajectory strategies such as chips, bump and run and other partial swing shots to minimize score.  This is essential to great golf as I understand it.

5.  I do not consider Ballyneal to be the best course for testing the player from uneven lies, but a player does deal with them on most shots.  Like most courses, there are far more uphill lies than downhill lies, and the player encounters few severe sidehill approach shots.

6.  One might also point to an imbalance in chipping strategies, since the putter is often the best choice for many short shots off the green.  You have to be a good wedge player from short grass to outperform a simple putt.  Bunker play is natural, difficult and excellent.


That's enough.  Thanks for your time.

By far the best post describing Ballyneal that I've seen on GCA.  All of the explanation, none of the insecurity.

[George Pazin]

Which is not surprising, as John Kirk is probably the single best poster who isn't in the industry (archiect, greenkeeper, etc.). We should all aspire to his level of insight, but that might be an impossible standard for most of us.


Once upon a time, another regular poster used to offer similar insights........