Ballyneal is the best modern design on the planet. Discuss.

[Bart Bradley]

Just returned from Ballyneal.  Had 4 wind directions in 2 days.  Amazing variety of holes, hole locations, green contours, hole directions.  Width.  Strategy and options (which are  often overrated because most designs don’t allow for much) on every shot, even putting.  Interesting routing which utilizes amazing land forms.  Bunkering which is sparse but strategic and penal.  Few lost balls but random lies on poor shots. Maintenance improving which allows design features to shine and be evident. Iconic and unique holes (7 and 8 may be the best back to back holes in all of golf).


My 75 year old in laws played back to back days and had a blast.  My mother in law said “I play my best golf here”.  No forced carries for her. No defined tee boxes allows her to play from 3500 yds without guilt.  No lost balls.



I have long been of the opinion that Ballyneal is the best modern design but my trip this weekend reinforced my thoughts. 


What say you?


Bart

[Peter Pallotta]

A request -- all those who have played Ballyneal please jump in with your thoughts.
I've long suspected (but actually know next to nothing - literally!) that judged solely as a *field of play* Ballyneal would come out on top.
And I've long predicted that, within the lifetime of this website/discussion board, Ballyneal will at some point claim the No. 1 spot - Modern.
The current crop of panelists/raters/magazine writers have made giant leaps forward from their predecessors in the 1980s, and yeomen work in highlighting quality architecture.
But perhaps it will take the *next* generation of panelists to take the work (and their understanding) to the next level, and to see with fresh eyes what is really there to see.
All that said, (and knowing actually nothing), I'd really like the read the thoughts of as many informed posters as possible -- especially since I'm not sure that even Ballyneal's *architect* agrees with me!

[JHoulihan]

4 Ballyneal
22 Kingsley club
32 Dismal river red
42 Sand valley
43 Arcadia bluffs
47 Desert forest
66 Black sheep
88 Wild horse


According to Golfweek best modern 2018 list I have played 8 of the top 100.


Simply put, yes. Ballyneal is the best modern course I have played. I enjoyed all 8 but Ballyneal was fun, made me think, strategize the next shot, and most importantly make me want to return to play ASAP.


Those with access to the worlds best private courses may disagree. Hopefully they will chime in and agree or disagree why.

[Jerry Kluger]

I have maintained for many years that Ballyneal represents the most fun you can have on a modern golf course.  It is truly wonderful that we do have so many really great modern courses and I wonder how they would be ranked if they all opened the same day.  Sand Hills is a marvelous course and to me represents an awakening that occurred in modern golf course architecture which opened the door for great courses like Ballyneal. So is SH better than Ballyneal - perhaps but it is certainly a close call, what about Pacific Dunes - is it better than Ballyneal purely from an architectural point of view (The views along the ocean certainly add to the greatness of PD but put those aside and how does the architecture compare to Ballyneal.) I could go on and on about other modern courses such as Friar's Head, etc. which are all great but I think that Ballyneal could be argued to be at least their equal.  My only concern is that I have heard some issues with the green surfaces at Ballyneal which is troubling but doesn't detract from its design.

[David Davis]

I was extremely happy to play Ballyneal again last September. I love the course but for some reason it's not my favorite of Tom's courses. I also really struggle with remembering the routing, perhaps it's a age issue. I don't have that at Pacific Dunes which is my favorite of his designs in the US (I'm biased here perhaps being from Oregon). I didn't have that at Tara Iti either or Barnbougle for that matter. Others don't seem to have that problem and I really tried hard to photograph everything and spend more time studying it this last time.


The new short course is loads of fun and it would be a wonderful place to call home if there was anyplace anywhere near it worth living. Denver is too far IMO.

[Scott Szabo]

Jerry, the greens at Ballyneal are perfect now.  Jared and his crew have done a marvelous job the past two years in correcting a few issues.  We are very fortunate to have the staff we do.

[Kalen Braley]

I've played Ballyneal, Rock Creek, and Pacific Dunes and they are all way up there on my fun list....1a thru 1c.


But if pressed to pick just one, I'd probably go with Ballyneal...

[Frank M]

I love the course but for some reason it's not my favorite of Tom's courses. I also really struggle with remembering the routing, perhaps it's a age issue.

Funny you mention this. I find this happens to me whenever I am forced to take a caddie and is one of the main reasons I like to walk and carry my own bag.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I love strong opinions and would love to see a more comprehensive argument on why it is the best!  That being stated, I found Dismal River Red to be greater because of its iwidth and the way the greens tied into the landscape.  They are[size=78%] much more restrained than Ballyneal, but there is an abundance of green movement to the point where triple break putts from 15 feet are common, but the movements are more subtle.  And of course, I find Sand Hills to have achieved perfection.  Maybe because it was the first, but I tend to judge everything in relation to Sand Hills[/size]

[Kyle Henderson]

I think it's the best course I've played, classics included, for many reasons including those you provided.

[Tom_Doak]

I also really struggle with remembering the routing, perhaps it's a age issue. I don't have that at Pacific Dunes which is my favorite of his designs in the US (I'm biased here perhaps being from Oregon). I didn't have that at Tara Iti either or Barnbougle for that matter.

It's easy to remember the others because you remember the numbers of the holes that go out to the ocean, and then you can piece together the rest.


Do you have the same problem with Sand Hills or Dismal River that you do with Ballyneal?  It's much easier to get lost in the dunes, generally, but I think especially so with Ballyneal.  But I think that's one of the good things about it.

[Frank M]

It's easy to remember the others because you remember the numbers of the holes that go out to the ocean, and then you can piece together the rest.

Do you have the same problem with Sand Hills or Dismal River that you do with Ballyneal?  It's much easier to get lost in the dunes, generally, but I think especially so with Ballyneal.  But I think that's one of the good things about it.

I am a big fan of Ballyneal and I have the same issue as David, though I do not have this same issue with Sand Hills or Dismal River. I remember Ballyneal quite well, just not as vividly. I can't remember the details of individual holes...as I do SH or DR...though I remember most of the holes and layout.

[Thomas Dai]

Can't comment on Ballyneal, although it sounds wonderful from everything I've read and seen, and there are obviously a whole load of wonderful courses that have been created in many places around the world over the last few decades.
There is however, a whole bunch of wonderful links land along the west coast of Ireland where something very special, maybe even 'great', could be laid out. Something that could be playable pretty much 12 months of the year as well and with no nasty critters and slithery things to be wary of.
Some already has been, and done on a very, very minimalist basis and with plenty of similar land immediately adjacent, especially way west in County Mayo. Indeed, along the coastline of Donegal in particular there is a whole load of wonderful links areas including around Sheephaven Bay. Shame that various Irish/EEC regulations are in place that generally discourage development though.
And of course in GB & I many sites that could be pretty special in golf course terms, even excluding locations where SSSI/protesters etc are likely to be present, are already being used as..........caravan sites!
Scout the globe via GoogleEarth though and loads of potential appears. Opportunity, opportunity, opportunity combined with talent (and usually) cash can have amazing results.
atb

[Kalen Braley]

If i'm remembering right.  I think another issue you have at Ballyneal is not having many unique long views to keep your sense of position on the course.  Its dunes in every direction unless you get a glimpse of the buildings..


Unlike a Pacific Dunes where you have the forest to the east and ocean to the west which are easily seen during several points of the round.

[Jeff Schley]

If i'm remembering right.  I think another issue you have at Ballyneal is not having many unique long views to keep your sense of position on the course.  Its dunes in every direction unless you get a glimpse of the buildings..


Unlike a Pacific Dunes where you have the forest to the east and ocean to the west which are easily seen during several points of the round.

Lucky to be going there in a couple weeks so I can have a first hand look. 

Kalen I can empathize with your statement for when you are in the desert you also tend to loose your sense of direction and why a compass is very helpful.  Seeing the same landscape (desert, sea, ballyneal perhaps) lends you without a sense of direction.
I was camping in the desert once with a friend and both quads broke down within like 5 minutes of each other like probably 4-5 miles from our camp for the night and it was getting dark.  Holy hell was I glad he had a compass as we knew if we walked due east we would either hit the road and follow it back to our entrance and camp or hit another camping site.

[John Kavanaugh]

Unbiased expert opinions:


https://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/photo/2017/08/28/top-100-golf-courses-world-2017


Ouch.

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,


I should also mention the long views at BN are often blocked due to the size of the dunes, so that doesn't help either...


P.S. In southern Utah, people get lost all the time as the rivers and canyons twist and turn every which way among the high canyon walls.  Its super easy to get lost especially given the frequent lack of cell service. 

[Cliff Hamm]

As much as I love them, I have the same problem remembering courses in Ireland. Tom’s explanation of “getting lost in the dunes” would explain why. It is certainly not because they are inferior golf courses.

[Kalen Braley]

Other than the 4/5/6/and back side of 7 intersection on the front 9, many of the holes are "self-contained" in that you don't see the other holes when playing the one you're on.


I too think its pretty cool as after every new dune ascended or hit around, something new unfolds in front of you, almost like you're exploring...

[Tommy Williamsen]

I'm not sure I would agree that it is the best modern design, but it sure is good. My wife liked it but doesn't want to return. She felt there were to many uphill shots into the greens. I disagreed but there you have it. It was difficult for he. We played it the day after we had played the Nicklaus course (pre-renovation) the day before, which she loved.

[John Kirk]

Unbiased expert opinions:

https://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/photo/2017/08/28/top-100-golf-courses-world-2017

Ouch.

I think I counted 20 courses built after 1960 that are rated higher on that Golf Magazine list.  If not the best, still pretty good for a consensus opinion.  Ballyneal plays very fast compared to other American golf courses.  It therefore provides a superior playground for low trajectory shots, and is also great for watching golf shots.

Nobody is unbiased.  It helps to be aware of one's biases.  My name is John, and I have Ballyneal bias.

[John Kirk]

To avoid killing this thread altogether, let me bring up a specific shot, the second shot at the 7th hole.

I'm not as strong or accurate a player as I once was, so my bunt driver or fairway wood tee shot now often leaves 110-130 yards to the center of the green.  Hitting the second shot straight is of paramount importance.  Too far right and the ball can find the right bunker; missing too far left and the ball can end up in the left bunker or the right bunker.  If the wind is blowing, I feel compelled to hit a very controlled straight shot, and often choose 2-3 extra clubs and chip it.  From 120 yards I might hit a little half-swing 9-iron.

Name another baby-size par 4 that compels you to club way down and chip the second shot at the green on a regular basis, even from distances that merit a full shot.  In my world, the 17th at Pumpkin Ridge (Ghost Creek) qualifies, when the pin is on the back shelf.
 

[Parker Page]

Bart-
Not having played all of the best modern courses in the world, my personal list has Pacific Dunes at #3, Sand Hills at #4, and Ballyneal at #5.  These are all separated by a hair's breath.


The great holes at Ballyneal (1, 3, 7, 8, 12, and 16) are slightly outpaced by the great holes at Sand Hills (1, 3, 4, 7, 8, 11, 14, 15, 17, and 18) and Pacific Dunes (2, 3, 4, 6, 11, 13, 16, and 17).


The beauty of each is mostly comparable, except when you throw in the ocean at Pacific Dunes.


The conditioning of each is more of less equal.


Sand Hills also gets bonus points for starting the movement.


None of this is meant as a slight to Ballyneal.  It might be the best of the 21st century.  It's just not the best modern design on the planet.

[Tal Oz]

Name another baby-size par 4 that compels you to club way down and chip the second shot at the green on a regular basis, even from distances that merit a full shot.  In my world, the 17th at Pumpkin Ridge (Ghost Creek) qualifies, when the pin is on the back shelf.

I'd contend that the 12th at Rustic Canyon is on that list. The penalty for missing long or right is so severe that with any wind on that hole your goal is to safely play 200ish down the right hand side and then play away from the majority of hole locations even with wedge in hand!

[David Davis]

I also really struggle with remembering the routing, perhaps it's a age issue. I don't have that at Pacific Dunes which is my favorite of his designs in the US (I'm biased here perhaps being from Oregon). I didn't have that at Tara Iti either or Barnbougle for that matter.

It's easy to remember the others because you remember the numbers of the holes that go out to the ocean, and then you can piece together the rest.


Do you have the same problem with Sand Hills or Dismal River that you do with Ballyneal?  It's much easier to get lost in the dunes, generally, but I think especially so with Ballyneal.  But I think that's one of the good things about it.

Tom,


That's an interesting point. I find myself trying to use certain holes to tie things together at Ballyneal. On the front 9, the tee shot at 4 is awe-inspiring and hard to forget but it doesn't help when 2 of my 3 plays there have been starting on the 10th hole.


To a lesser extent I have that with Sand Hills as well. One of the other reasons in my mind is that the entire course lays perfectly with the terrain and it seems that all the terrain is equally wild which is something I really like but it does make it more difficult to differentiate.