[James Reader]

I’m just back from a two-day trip to Turnberry, playing the Ailsa course for the first time since the big changes made a couple of years ago.  I have to say that I absolutely loved it.  The setting has always been amazing, but the run of (mainly) new holes along the coast - 4th to 11th - now more than does it justice.  Absolutely spectacular, and the rest of the course is great as well.


I’m really interested as to why there has been so little discussion about the changes on this site (all I could find on a search was a thread on whether the 9th would be better as a short par 4, rather than the par 3 it’s become - I don’t think there would have been room, for what it’s worth). Have others not played it yet, or have but just weren’t as impressed a I was?

[Tom_Doak]

Was it busy?


Someone told me the other day that the finances for Doonbeg, Turnberry and Trump International in Aberdeen are publicly available, and that all three are losing staggering amounts of money.  I asked about Turnberry specifically because I assumed they had a steady repeat business.  But I haven't been back there myself since 1985, so I can't comment on the changes.

[Mark Fedeli]

I just finished booking times for an early September trip to Ayrshire and the highlands, and Turnberry was the only big name course where we had our pick of times every day. Morning through evening, plenty of times available.


It also took them 3-4 days to reply to emails, versus just the usual 1 day for every other course. Thought that was cute.

[James Reader]

Was it busy?


Someone told me the other day that the finances for Doonbeg, Turnberry and Trump International in Aberdeen are publicly available, and that all three are losing staggering amounts of money.  I asked about Turnberry specifically because I assumed they had a steady repeat business.  But I haven't been back there myself since 1985, so I can't comment on the changes.

I was there on a Friday afternoon and Saturday morning and the course was pretty full - although if it’s not going to be busy at a weekend in the middle of summer, it really would be struggling. Whether or not it’s busy enough to cover the huge investment that has made in the place is another question.  The numbers that the caddies and staff were talking about having been invested in the course, clubhouse, lighthouse (quite something as a halfway house, by the way) and hotel were enormous.


To be honest, I’m not a fan of Trump (something of an understatement), so I was quite ready to be disappointed and bemoan him for having ruined a great golf course; I can’t, it’s fantastic.

[Rich Goodale]

Was it busy?


Someone told me the other day that the finances for Doonbeg, Turnberry and Trump International in Aberdeen are publicly available, and that all three are losing staggering amounts of money.  I asked about Turnberry specifically because I assumed they had a steady repeat business.  But I haven't been back there myself since 1985, so I can't comment on the changes.

Tom


I very much doubt that The Donald considers operating losses on small properties such as his European golf courses to be "staggering."  Vis a vis revenues, filed statements seem to indicate healthy trends as per:


 https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2018/05/18/revenues-soar-at-trumps-european-golf-courses/


Rich

[Michael Whitaker]

In reviewing the financials that were made public it seemed to me that most (if not all) of the “staggering” losses were from aggressive depreciation write offs... but, I’m not a CPA so I’m probably wrong. 

[Bryan Izatt]

I played the new Ailsa about a year ago and I too thought it was very good - a significant improvement on the previous version.  I really need to get around to doing a photo tour from the many pictures I took.


Rich, I read one report that suggested that his golf courses provide more than 40% of his revenues for the year, so their financial health is somewhat significant to him I would think.


When we were there last year, it was relatively busy and the green fees were certainly high enough to generate a fair income per player.  On the other hand, at Trump Aberdeen, it was almost deserted when we drove by late in the day a couple of months ago.


Regarding the reports of revenues and losses, I'm not sure how much credence you can put in any of them.  The Donald has been known to play fast and loose with the facts.  Following are a couple of snippets from a recent Bloomberg article.

Trump has said he has poured 200 million British pounds ($265 million) into his Turnberry makeover. But his own general manager for the resort has contradicted him, saying in news interviews that the figure is closer to 140 million pounds ($185 million). Even that figure is artificially high because it represents investments Trump has pledged, not what he has actually spent. And, by the way, that figure is padded to begin with because it also includes Trump’s purchasing price for the property.

.................................

His disclosure form last year, for example, pegged the president’s income from Turnberry at $14.5 million.  Trump’s most recent disclosure, filed in May, showed Turnberry generating $20.4 million in income for the president in 2017. The financial disclosure forms Trump has filed in Scotland don’t suggest that Trump would be able to pull in that kind of money from either course given their modest revenue streams and annual losses. 

Bloomberg News reporters have previously noted that earlier financial disclosure forms filed by the president suffered from similar problems. When they asked Trump in early 2016 about discrepancies appearing in those records, he told them that the U.S. forms — which are unaudited and simply rely on the president’s own assessment of his holdings — weren’t meant to convey actual earnings but, instead, “projected future income.”

[Tom_Doak]

In reviewing the financials that were made public it seemed to me that most (if not all) of the “staggering” losses were from aggressive depreciation write offs... but, I’m not a CPA so I’m probably wrong. 

Well, that makes sense.  You would think a guy from a major Fortune 500 consulting firm would recognize that, but maybe he missed it.

[Michael Whitaker]

In reviewing the financials that were made public it seemed to me that most (if not all) of the “staggering” losses were from aggressive depreciation write offs... but, I’m not a CPA so I’m probably wrong. 

Well, that makes sense.  You would think a guy from a major Fortune 500 consulting firm would recognize that, but maybe he missed it.

As I said, I’m probably wrong. I usually am.

[Niall C]

It always surprises me that the mainstream press don’t pick up on his cost claims and check it out as it wouldn’t take much effort to verify. For a start the sale of land and buildings in Scotland is a matter of public record and can be looked up for a relatively small cost, and calculating the cost of building a course, even without inside info, could be estimated to within a couple of million ? Certainly close enough to debunk some of the nonsense he comes away with I’d have thought.

With regards the course, I haven’t played it but have only heard good things about it. Unusually I’ve not heard any adverse comment that you might expect from significant changes to a much loved and popular course.

Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

Niall,


nobody believes the hype that Trump spouts which should be no surprise to anyone as he does not believe it either. Nor does he care that nobody believes it. People accept that he is lying but that does not bother them and that is what should be the most worrying. The peoples trust in the political is none existent but the politicians don't seem to be concerned.

[Niall C]

Jon

I disagree, people do believe. Think back to the Balmedie planning application and all the claims that were treated as being credible. It was on the back of those claims that they granted planning permission.

Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

Really Niall!!!


I talked to a lot of people at the time and even then I never met anyone who thought Trump was actually going to spend a billion. Now the number must be even lower than 0% As for the reasons for the permission being granted that will probably remain hidden in the closed back room in which the deal was done. Interesting that both main players in that shoddy little affair have both closer ties to the Russians than any politician really should.


Nuff said

[David Davis]

James,


I agree with what you've said. I loved the course as well. The renovations IMO were a huge success and the stretch of coastal holes were tremendously improved and feel like they have always been that way.


I strongly feel that rebranding the resort however was a huge mistake and time may prove that to even be a bigger one. A thread like this can't even stay on point and out of politics and my perception of his international reputation is nowhere near how positive things are in the US. That's can't be good for a golf course and trying to market it.


In any case, Martin Ebert did a tremendous job there and on top of that somehow managed to keep Trump at bay in terms of ridiculous things being done to the course. Luckily there are not any golden fountains lining the coast or any of the inland holes.

[Rich Goodale]

Really Niall!!!


I talked to a lot of people at the time and even then I never met anyone who thought Trump was actually going to spend a billion. Now the number must be even lower than 0% As for the reasons for the permission being granted that will probably remain hidden in the closed back room in which the deal was done. Interesting that both main players in that shoddy little affair have both closer ties to the Russians than any politician really should.


Nuff said

Jon


Your Russians meme reminded me of Philby, MacLean, Burgess, Blunt and Cairncross.  Now these lovely British guys really knew how dump shite on their fellow citizens.  Magic!  Wimps like Manofort, etc. had as much influence on the 2016 election as did Nancy Pelosi, i.e. Nada....


Move on, Bro....


Rich

[Jon Wiggett]

Touch a bit of a raw nerve RG!!!!

[Michael J. Moss]

I will not set foot on a Trump owned or branded property until it is either sold or files for bankruptcy, but then only where it's an absolute certainty his equity is gonzo. And for the record, I voted for every Republican presidential candidate since Nixon's 1972 reelection campaign until Trump/Clinton. I put a laundry pin on my nose and pulled the Clinton lever... So to tie this into GCA, I have no opinion on the redesigned work at the Ailsa course.

[Kalen Braley]

I will not set foot on a Trump owned or branded property until it is either sold or files for bankruptcy, but then only where it's an absolute certainty his equity is gonzo. And for the record, I voted for every Republican presidential candidate since Nixon's 1972 reelection campaign.

So you voted for Trump then?  You won't support his businesses, but don't mind him doing his business on everyone else? 

[Michael J. Moss]

Kalen,

I "modified" my reply. I did not make that clear at all. But "...doing his business on everyone else." Well said!

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

I "modified" my reply. I did not make that clear at all. But "...doing his business on everyone else." Well said!

Makes sense.....

[Ian Mackenzie]

Really Niall!!!


I talked to a lot of people at the time and even then I never met anyone who thought Trump was actually going to spend a billion. Now the number must be even lower than 0% As for the reasons for the permission being granted that will probably remain hidden in the closed back room in which the deal was done. Interesting that both main players in that shoddy little affair have both closer ties to the Russians than any politician really should.


Nuff said

Jon


Your Russians meme reminded me of Philby, MacLean, Burgess, Blunt and Cairncross.  Now these lovely British guys really knew how dump shite on their fellow citizens.  Magic!  Wimps like Manofort, etc. had as much influence on the 2016 election as did Nancy Pelosi, i.e. Nada....

Move on, Bro....

Rich

Let's see where it all shakes out...from Trump's golf resort revenue claims to Manafort's involvement.
NO ONE knows and certainly NO ONE lurking on this fringe forum...;-)
I have only two questions :


1. Swimming in debt and approaching insolvency, why did Manafort - via Tom Barrack - offer his services to the Trump campaign at no fee?
2. Speaking of debt...Trump is the self-proclaimed "King of debt" and uses other people's money (and debt) to fund his projects. Why then did Udai and Qusai (Don and Eric) overtly state that the $400M+ they used to bankroll Doral, Doonbeg, Turnberry and Aberdeen came from operating profits from the rest of the Trump Org? (No effing chance.)

Profits? Really? That means they poured  their own money all of a sudden breaking with four decades of standard Trump practices. Again, in order to fund projects in an industry experiencing a global slowdown with notoriously thin margins.

(Laundromat..?...but, for whom?)

This will all come out - one way or the other - and, back to the topic, we will see how "equatized" Turnberry really is and then, IMO, will be scooped up in a distressed sale for pennies/dollar.Glad I played it in 1990 and 1999.Look forward to playing it again under new ownership in about 3-5 years.

[Howard Riefs]

Tom

I very much doubt that The Donald considers operating losses on small properties such as his European golf courses to be "staggering."  Vis a vis revenues, filed statements seem to indicate healthy trends as per:

 https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2018/05/18/revenues-soar-at-trumps-european-golf-courses/


Rich

Other outlets are reporting it differently:


https://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnewsnetteam/2018/05/18/donald-trumps-financial-disclosure-form-shows-dramatic-loss-golf-revenue-2017-109539/


https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article214265614.html


https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-07-13/trump-s-u-k-trip-a-money-losing-scottish-golf-paradise

[James Reader]

James,


I agree with what you've said. I loved the course as well. The renovations IMO were a huge success and the stretch of coastal holes were tremendously improved and feel like they have always been that way.


I strongly feel that rebranding the resort however was a huge mistake and time may prove that to even be a bigger one. A thread like this can't even stay on point and out of politics and my perception of his international reputation is nowhere near how positive things are in the US. That's can't be good for a golf course and trying to market it.


In any case, Martin Ebert did a tremendous job there and on top of that somehow managed to keep Trump at bay in terms of ridiculous things being done to the course. Luckily there are not any golden fountains lining the coast or any of the inland holes.

When I started this thread I suspected it would end up more focused on the owner than the course - how right I was!


I very nearly turned down the opportunity to go because of its ownership but, in the end, decided that to not do would hurt me more than him.  Call me weak-willed and unprincipled if you like.  I’d love to say I regret it, but the course was so good that I honestly can’t.

[Jeff Schley]

Make Turnberry Great Again

[Adrian_Stiff]

I’m just back from a two-day trip to Turnberry, playing the Ailsa course for the first time since the big changes made a couple of years ago.  I have to say that I absolutely loved it.  The setting has always been amazing, but the run of (mainly) new holes along the coast - 4th to 11th - now more than does it justice.  Absolutely spectacular, and the rest of the course is great as well.


I’m really interested as to why there has been so little discussion about the changes on this site (all I could find on a search was a thread on whether the 9th would be better as a short par 4, rather than the par 3 it’s become - I don’t think there would have been room, for what it’s worth). Have others not played it yet, or have but just weren’t as impressed a I was?

JEALOUSY

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