[T_MacWood]

St.Louis is good example for Macdonald IMO...it combines some of the best qualities of Camargo and Shoreacres. I'm sure Stanley Thompson has a number in Canada....Sleepy Hollow is one if his for sure in Ohio. For Ross Westbrook, again in Ohio, is excellent. Fowler's Eastward Ho! for some reason is unsung.

What are some of the excellent unknown or little known courses of the very best architects?

[TEPaul]

Two that I'm personally aware of are Donald Ross's Misquamicutt in R.I and very definitely Charles River in Boston. Charles River is known but not known and appreciated well enough, in my opinion. I've seen a lot of Ross courses in my time but Charles River when it comes to a particular type of architecture just may be the finest Ross I've ever seen! Many parts of a recently mentioned Ross course in Philadelphia--Torresdale Frankford, is another example of the unsung work of the sung (Ross).

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

A somewhat unheralded Thompson layout here in Canada is Westmount in Kitchener, Ontario. Although the club has ordered some ill-advised changes over the years, the Thompson design remains mostly intact. And it's a fine golf course on a pretty interesting piece of ground.

[GeoffreyC]

Tom

Fenway used to be an unsong Tillinghast course.  Being within a driver of Winged Foot and Quaker RIdge didn't help.

Twenty two years ago when I first played Pasatiempo (A MacKenzie) it was not well known either.  I do believe that Pasatiempo was a case of losing its status or identity for a short time rather then never getting any aclaim from the beginning.

[Keith Williams]

I'll mention Donald Ross' Holston Hills.  It gets mentioned occasionally, but I don't think many people know much about it and outside of the GCA circle I think it goes largely unnoticed.

Keith.

[JDoyle]

Raynor - CC of Fairfield
Flynn - Rolling Green
Mackenzie - Palmetto GC

[Mike_Sweeney]

Winchester CC- Ross, Winchester, MA

[Jeff_Mingay]

Putting this question in a modern context: as Tom Doak's career progresses, I imagine High Pointe might one day fit into this category.

[Mike Hendren]

Ross' Memphis CC.

Mike

[T_MacWood]

Geoffrey
I was thinking the same about Crystal Downs (which I played about 15 years ago).

I agree with High Pointe.

A couple more that come to mind--Columbia (Travis) and Sylvania (Park). Both are among the very best each produced.

Mike
What do you know about the history of Memphis? Supposedly Ross designed it in 1910 (if I remember correctly)...that seems awfully early in his career to venturing out to Tennessee.

[bg_in_rtp]

Ross - Southern Pines

[Scott_Burroughs]

Ross muni trio:

Mark Twain
Wilmington GC
Manakiki

[SPDB]

Ross - Tegeuga (some say it may possess his greatest greens)
MacDonald - The Creek (Tom D puts in the 31 Flavors, Coore mentions it as one of the 5 he would like to see for the first time).

Tillinghast - Newport (a lot of talk, but very rarely in the context of his work there).

Nicklaus - Great Bear

 

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,

From "The History of Tennessee Golf:"  

"Memphis Country Club is one of Tennessee's oldest clubs.  The club was organized in 1905 and the members were playing a nine-hole course designed by James Foulis, Jr.  Tom Bendelow added nine holes and then in 1910 Donald Ross rebuilt the course that is being played today.  Memphis Country Club green superintendent Rod Lingle discussed the course's history:

'This course opened in 1905.  I would be willing to bet this course - for as old as it is - has had less changes than any course in America.  The main reason is we are land locked.  We are on only about 105 acres.  We have old aerials that were taken in the 1920's.  All our tees and greens are in the same positions they were then.  We would like to stretch our course, but we can't because we are land locked.

I think about two thirds of our greens are the original 1905, perhaps 1910 greens.  People can't believe that but it's true.  They think you have to rebuild greens every fifteen to twenty years because they won't grow grass.  That's not true.  It depends on how those greens are maintained.  The greens that have been rebuilt are the second, the third (in 1999 by Lingle), the eighth probably, the ninth probably, the tenth before the 1948 U.S. Amateur, and the eighteenth probably.'"

The text goes on to say that John LeFoy restored the bunkers in 1989, moving only two fairway bunkers at the 14th, and the fairways were converted to zoysia in 1999.  That same year, the greens were re-seeded with Champion Bermuda.  

I'm not too sure about those dates.  Belle Meade CC in Nashville dates itself from 1901, but I believe the Ross layout (NLE thanks to RTJ, Rees et al) was built around 1917.  Similar stories from Richland CC (truly NLE) and Cherokee CC in Knoxville.  I suspect each of these clubs had a rudimentary course which Ross totally re-did circa 1917.  I'll have to hit the books.

Mike

[Mick]

Another from Canada. Cataraqui Country Club, Kingston, ON - Thompson.  Intimate layout over some interesting terrain.  From what I hear they are in the midst of a tree removal program too.

[T_MacWood]

Mike
Thanks for the info. I kind of wonder about those dates too. Foulis 9 in 1905...makes sense. Bendelow adds a second 9 between 1905 and 1910....makes sense. Ross rebuilds the 18-hole course in 1910....questionable.

For one I think Ross was just getting started in 1910...and mostly around Boston (and of course Pinehurst). In 1910 Foulis and Bendelow might have been bigger names in the design game. I would thought Ross would have been working there later...maybe around that 1917 date that the others share.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Isn't it possible that Ross re-did MCC without ever seeing it?  Didn't he do a number of his 430+ designs that way?

Perhaps a look into Discovering DR (at home for me) or the other one which escapes me at the moment.

[Paul_Turner]

For Colt and Co, all their work in Holland/Belgium.  

My favourites in Britain so far, are Whittington Heath (every bit as good a hidden gem as Beau Desert, for that area) and Harborne.  Posted pics of both.

[paul cowley]

...ross ,the cc of portland ,maine...very ross ,very private[ken venturi stopped by but could not play as no member would accompany him ]......

i would like to know more about this course if anyone could share some info .......

[ian]

Thompson:

Cataraqui G&CC, amazing layout, bunkers still very much intact
Kawartha G&CC, 12 holes with bunkers at the Banff level
Westmount, Jeff's right, its one of his best routings
Burlington G&CC, clever short layout
St. Thomas G&CC, only 12 holes remain but entire course is great, great land
Thornhill GC, many great holes with a few still having the original architecture

Willie Park Jr.

Illesmere, really great bunkers,
Beaconsfield, back nine is the best in Montreal, Thompson reno

Walter Travis

Cape Arundal, probably best of his work
CC of Scranton, incredible set of greens, beautiful views
Lookout Point, amazing layout on extremly hilly site
Courty Club of Troy, great layout, wonderful terrain
Yahnundasis CC, one standout nine hole

[Tom_Doak]

Paul C:  I've been to Portland CC.  It's a great setting, and a pretty good Ross design, but there are a bunch of other little-known Ross designs which I'd put ahead of it.  I'm pretty sure the renovation work there was done by Brit Stinson of IMG about five years back.

I was just at Palmetto GC yesterday.  It's a neat place, a bit cramped in spots, but of course MacKenzie didn't do the routing, just renovations.  For an unsung MacKenzie course I'd go with Cavendish or Halifax in England first, or Cork Golf Club in Ireland.  Pretty much all of his US courses are "sung."  The U of Michigan course might be his most underrated (even by me!).

High Pointe is certainly headed in this direction, but it has received its share of attention over the years.  Riverfront in Virginia is our most underrated design, aside from Ran's great write-up of it here.

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