[Mark_Fine]

In the August issue of Golfweek his article stated, "Carnoustie proves a tough but fair test”.  Fair and unfair are the wrong words to use when describing a golf course.  They mean NOTHING and are out of context when it comes to describing golf and golf course architecture.  Better to use words like well designed or poorly designed or properly set up.  I have NEVER come across a hole I would describe with either of those words.  I have, however, come across stupid setups, bizzarre layouts, poor design and just plain bad golf holes.  "Tough but fair"??  What does that mean?

[Mark Fedeli]

In Geoff's defense, he completely agrees with you based on practically everything I've ever read or heard from him. The phrase was an unfortunate cliche, to be sure, but considering his amount of output, I'd give him a pass. Especially considering he's mainly writing about the pro game in that context.

[Kalen Braley]

Sounds like that old Bush'ism of being a "compassionate conservative".  Certainly not a bigger oxymoron than that...especially in 2018.


P.S.  Perhaps examples of a tough but unfair test of golf would be good to establish the line...

[Mark_Fine]

Mark,
I am very surprised as well but that is a huge blunder.  I would think on this site of all places people would realize the negative implications that has on golf and golf course architecture?  I cringe when anyone uses the word fair to describe a golf hole or design feature  This statement about Carnoustie doesn't help matters and goes against many things we talk about on GCA.  Sorry, but I can't believe Geoff is happy with that title.  Again what is tough but fair or as Kalen asks tough but unfair?  I have no idea. 

[James Brown]

Mark,
I am very surprised as well but that is a huge blunder.  I would think on this site of all places people would realize the negative implications that has on golf and golf course architecture?  I cringe when anyone uses the word fair to describe a golf hole or design feature  This statement about Carnoustie doesn't help matters and goes against many things we talk about on GCA.  Sorry, but I can't believe Geoff is happy with that title.  Again what is tough but fair or as Kalen asks tough but unfair?  I have no idea. 

The 18th at Olympic and the Redan at Shinnecock when set up with the green too fast and the pin in the wrong location.  That’s what I think of as tough and unfair. 

[Niall C]

Mark

Was that in the title of the article or was it in the text ?

Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

I can't find it in the Golfweek digital edition, but if it is the headline, then be aware that Geoff will almost certainly not have written it.

[Jon Wiggett]

The mistake is thinking 'fair' has any place in golf. It simply does not!!! The only things that are important are playability of the course and equality in the implementation of the rules.


Everything else is misguided misunderstanding

[Mark Fedeli]

I can't find it in the Golfweek digital edition, but if it is the headline, then be aware that Geoff will almost certainly not have written it.

It was the headline: https://golfweek.com/2018/07/22/2018-british-open-carnoustie-proves-tough-but-fair-test-in-outstanding-return/


Seems to be a response to the outcry that Shinnecock on Saturday was unfair.

[Peter Pallotta]

A plausible definition of 'tough but fair' might be:
"Very long but sufficiently wide, with consistently clear sight-lines and severe hazards positioned so as to penalize wayward shots,  but only wayward shots".
Sounds like the kind of course I'd like to play if I was a tournament-calibre golfer competing for my livelihood. It is a game of skill, after all, and such a course seems wholly appropriate for the function it is meant to serve.

[jeffwarne]

When making a living writing slowly morphs someone into the mainstream media, occasionally mainstream quotes come out.


On the painful topic of "tough but fair" (a phrase I'd say most of us here abhor), IF penalizing wayward shots is the definition of "tough but fair" (ick)....
Carnoustie was an epic fail with Spieth as exhibit A


but I doubt Geoff wrote the headline

[Mark_Fine]

I don't mind people covering for Geoff about who wrote the title but his name is on it.   As such, most everyone reading that article will believe he wrote it and that Geoff believes it. 


Peter,
Good try but sorry, I don't buy it. 


Fair and unfair are not terms to be associated with golf and they never should be.  This was a title mistake and Geoff and/or Golfweek should admit it.  This could actually make for a great retraction article about why those terms have no place in the game of golf. 

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,


I think unfair is OK on its own to describe a green like 18 at Olympic when its cut too low.  I'm just not a huge fan of the "tough but fair" moniker.  Its absolutely meaningless...so much so I got a crisp $100 bill sitting here for anyone who can succinctly define it.

[Ronald Montesano]

Mark...love your book, love your work, but this horse is dead dead dead.

If you've written for magazine or internet publication, then you know that we have ZERO control over the headline. We can make a suggestion, but there are people who make a living as headline writers. In addition, Geoff writes so much, that I'm certain he was on to the next four articles after submitting this one.

However ...

If Geoff did write it, why such an uproar? If it attracts people to the article, where there is certainly good stuff written about gca, then we are better for it.

These words are my own, and do not constitute the opinion of God or anyone else.

RM

I don't mind people covering for Geoff about who wrote the title but his name is on it.   As such, most everyone reading that article will believe he wrote it and that Geoff believes it. 


Peter,
Good try but sorry, I don't buy it. 


Fair and unfair are not terms to be associated with golf and they never should be.  This was a title mistake and Geoff and/or Golfweek should admit it.  This could actually make for a great retraction article about why those terms have no place in the game of golf.

[Mark_Fine]

Ronald,
I hear you but this is a big one as it has major implications to course set ups, course design in general, and the course rankings that many here love to hate.  I have been an advocate for years with one of the major golf magazines to remove the tough but fair definition out of their course ranking criteria and this is a set back. 


Kalen,
I will add $100 to that challenge as well!


Geoff should jump on this “opportunity” to state how he really feels.


If anyone wants to argue please tell me what is fair or unfair with the following few thoughts and why?


- The hole locations on #13 and #15 at Shinnecock Hills on Saturday
- Two 320 yard drives hit a foot apart, one rolls into a divot and one does not
- Your approach shot ends up in a sandy waste area at Pine Valley in a deer or human footprint
- There is a bunker right in the middle of the fairway
- Your tee shot requires a 120 yard carry over water?
- Your ball ends up on the macadam road crossing the 1st and 18th fairway on The Old Course
- You hit a “great" drive and you have a blind shot to the green
- You hit your putt a touch too hard and it rolls off the false front on the green and 25 yards down the fairway
- Your shot plugs in a bunker
- There is a large tree next to the green with limbs hanging over it
- The greens are rolling at 14 leaving it almost impossible to stop the ball within five feet of the cup


Need I go on?  We call most of the above rub of the green and some we might just call poor design or stupid setups.  But if we try to make the game fair, we will ruin it.  As such we should never use the terms to describe any part of it. 

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,


Excellent list!  And throw in the arbitrary nature of rules applications.


Balls rolls into a divot? Tough luck pal.
Ball rolls in a ball mark on the green?  You can fix and replace for free.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Judas Priest, one little off hand comment in a headline which may or may not have been his doing and this board goes to DEFCON 1.  This board is like a Stalinist regime sometimes.  Shack dared to say "tough but fair?"  Trotskyite!  Off to the gulag with him!


"Tough but fair" is down my list of cliches to avoid, although it is on that list.  Now if Shack instead used "lush fairways" then it's out with the torches and pitchforks...

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom - two men are at a bus stop. One notices the other wearing a Nike cap:

Jim: You a golfer?
Bob: (nodding) I love the game.
Jim: Me too. Do you prefer match play or stroke play?
Bob: Definitely match play.
Jim: Agree 100%. Would you rather play on green lush fairways or beige-brown fast ones?
Bob: Without a doubt, the brown baked-out fast ones.   
Jim: Well, what do you know - again, me too! We should get out and play sometimes.
Bob: I'd like that a lot, thanks.
Jim: Do you play publics or privates? 
Bob: Only privates, I'm afraid - I'm a member.
Jim: Me too! Classic or modern?
Bob: I'm all about the classics.
Jim: Top ranked classics or little known gems?
Bob: Oh, little known gems, every time.
Jim: My goodness, we really must get out for a quick 9 tomorrow. Ross or MacRaynor?
Bob: Ross.
Jim: The tips or the whites?
Bob: The whites - it's all about fun.
Jim:  Amen to that, brother. Walking or riding?
Bob: Walking - riding shouldn't even be allowed.
Jim:  Yes, sir! Fall or spring?
Bob: Fall.
Jim: Blades or cavity backs?
Bob: Blades.
Jim: Man oh man - me too, me too, and me too! You're like my new best friend.
Bob: Yes, I'm feeling exactly the same way.
Jim: Great - let's organize for tomorrow. Your course or mine?
Bob: Let's play mine. I think you'll love it -- it's tough but fair.

Jim's face gets beet red, and he starts to tremble - and then he leaps at Bob and grabs him by the throat and starts strangling him:

Jim: Heretic! Liar!! Die, die, die!!!!

[Kalen Braley]

Well done Peter!!! 

[John Kavanaugh]

Kalen,


Just for your information, Carnoustie was tough but fair because of the maintenance. The greens being watered and green made the course fair. The architecture made it tough. If the fairways had been watered it would have only been tough if even that. If the greens were rock hard it would have been a luck fest. Not fair in a competitive sense. Tough but fair is always a maintenance issue. This was an easy one to identify because of the well known history of the course.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,


Just for your information, Carnoustie was tough but fair because of the maintenance. The greens being watered and green made the course fair. The architecture made it tough. If the fairways had been watered it would have only been tough if even that. If the greens were rock hard it would have been a luck fest. Not fair in a competitive sense. Tough but fair is always a maintenance issue. This was an easy one to identify because of the well known history of the course.

John,


With rock hard fairways, I would submit trying to hit them at 250-300 yards away with a driver involves far more luck than trying to hit a firm green with a wedge or short iron in hand.  While I agree that maintenance certainly has an impact on how a course plays....you came up far short of defining "tough but fair" if it was the $200 you were sniffing for! 

[John Kavanaugh]

The only thing I need less than $200 is to defend Geoff Shackleford.

[BCrosby]

Wonderful, Peter. Well done.


I've had a couple of conversations similar to your sketch. As always, fiction comes closest to the truth.


Bob 

[John Kavanaugh]

Tough but fair is perfect maintenance meld for the masses.

[Alex Miller]

Was there a big "tough but fair" thread I missed? Why is this phrase bad for a championship course? 

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