[Michael Wolf]

Curious of how many of you use the scores in The Confidential Guides to decide where to take a golf trip? I'm sure many consult the Guides to help decide where to play on trips where a general area has already been settled on. But how many have made a deliberate decision to try and play all (eventual) 90 Gourmet 's Choices, for instance? Or all of the courses rated 9 and above, which according to the Doak Scale "You should see this course sometime in your life"?


I believe there are 20 courses rated with an average score of 8.75 and above in Vol's I-III. Most are already very well known courses that are on many of our drop-everything-to-play lists. But I bring up the topic because Vol 4&5 (or 5&4) will cover courses in regions many of us are much less familiar with and for most of us are harder and more expensive to reach. And thus course selection for a trip to these regions is probably even more important than in Guides 1-3.

Many of the hundreds of threads on this forum debating the merits of various publication's top100 lists have been especially critical of their promotion of some more far flung courses, particularly in Asia. [size=78%][/size]If Tom&Co published a score of 10-9-9-10 for an unknown course in the middle of Africa or China, how much would that kick start your plans to try to travel there? What about 9-8-8-9? Or if Madagascar didn't have any 10's, but had 3 7's geographically close together? How about the opposite [size=78%][/size]scenario, where a course was included in GolfWeek and Golf magazines T100 lists, but Vol5 of the CG only had it as a 5? or a 7.5?

For the Bill Schultz's of the world, has anyone played all of the 7's and above? Is anyone trying to? Anyone sick enough to deliberately seek out the 0's?

And finally for Tom Doak - anything you can share on publication plans for Vols IV and V, # of courses covered? # of 9's and above so far? Also any news on the books on Routing a Golf Course?

thanks for the feedback,

Michael Wolf

[jeffwarne]

If you use the Confidential guide NUMBERS only to plan your golf trips(and limit yourself to 7's or even 6's and above), you're going to do a LOT of driving, and miss a LOT of gems.
The commentary is the most useful part of the book

[Kalen Braley]

True Jeff,


Even Doak's own scale says you should play 5s and 6s if you get anywhere near them.

[Michael Wolf]

I agree, and I think Tom does also. Isn't that why the Gourmet's aren't just the highest ranked courses?

[Jeff Schley]

I have enjoyed thumbing through my CG to give me an idea of some courses I haven't necessarily heard of in other countries. The UK / Ireland version has proved very helpful.  Also I particularly like the maps with dots pointing to each course described to give me a feel for how far x course is from y course etc.  I know it isn't to scale, but a very nice feature for those not familiar how far x course is from y course.

[Michael Wolf]

True Jeff,


Even Doak's own scale says you should play 5s and 6s if you get anywhere near them.

Agree completely. I'm just assuming in Vol4/5 that there won't be as many even 5's and 6's near each other. That's why I'm curious the different ways folks use the guides and how that might apply to the upcoming volumes.

[Mike Hendren]

If I could play just one list it would be the second hundred classic courses according to Golfweek. 

Bogey

[PCCraig]

I'm not sure the numbers are all that helpful in the Guide, to be honest. What I read is the descriptions and that usually tells me if it's a place worth checking out.

[Thomas Dai]

I reckon I, and quite a few others posting herein, could take folks to a bunch of courses within 50 miles of their home which aren't in the CG, not because there poor courses, but because neither Tom nor the others who contribute to the CG have (as yet) been to them. They'd mostly be 4's and 5's but there'd also be the odd 6, maybe even a 7, as well. There are lot of courses about, and some of them with a bunch of trees removed and a decent maintenance budget would be even better.
As an aside, the drawings and illustrations in the CG's is terrific.
atb

[jeffwarne]

I'm not sure the numbers are all that helpful in the Guide, to be honest. What I read is the descriptions and that usually tells me if it's a place worth checking out.

spot on and I've played multiple 3's that I loved
Which may mean I know nothing about architecture

[James Brown]

It’s a data point.  More valuable for regions I am visiting for the first time.   Finally got to Dunbar in East Lothian and wish I had been there sooner. 

[Tim Martin]

If I could play just one list it would be the second hundred classic courses according to Golfweek. 

Bogey

Bogey-That list is loaded with gems!

[Tom_Doak]

I reckon I, and quite a few others posting herein, could take folks to a bunch of courses within 50 miles of their home which aren't in the CG, not because there poor courses, but because neither Tom nor the others who contribute to the CG have (as yet) been to them. They'd mostly be 4's and 5's but there'd also be the odd 6, maybe even a 7, as well. There are lot of courses about, and some of them with a bunch of trees removed and a decent maintenance budget would be even better.
As an aside, the drawings and illustrations in the CG's is terrific.
atb

If there is a 7 in your area which we have not seen, you are holding out, Thomas!  Confess !!!


[NOTE:  I did go to Minchinhampton Old and Cleeve Cloud after publication of Volume 1, so, I'll grant those as possibilities.  They will be in the updated next printing.  But there's no way that very many people have a 7 within 50 miles that we haven't gotten to.]

[Jeff Schley]

BTW when is volume 4 shipping?  I bought a set for myself and dad and wanted to see what that uncovers for Europe and Africa as I got the ME pretty covered.
Volume 4 - Europe, Middle East and Africa

[Tom_Doak]

Curious of how many of you use the scores in The Confidential Guides to decide where to take a golf trip? I'm sure many consult the Guides to help decide where to play on trips where a general area has already been settled on. But how many have made a deliberate decision to try and play all (eventual) 90 Gourmet 's Choices, for instance? Or all of the courses rated 9 and above, which according to the Doak Scale "You should see this course sometime in your life"?


I believe there are 20 courses rated with an average score of 8.75 and above in Vol's I-III. Most are already very well known courses that are on many of our drop-everything-to-play lists. But I bring up the topic because Vol 4&5 (or 5&4) will cover courses in regions many of us are much less familiar with and for most of us are harder and more expensive to reach. And thus course selection for a trip to these regions is probably even more important than in Guides 1-3.

Many of the hundreds of threads on this forum debating the merits of various publication's top100 lists have been especially critical of their promotion of some more far flung courses, particularly in Asia. If Tom&Co published a score of 10-9-9-10 for an unknown course in the middle of Africa or China, how much would that kick start your plans to try to travel there? What about 9-8-8-9? Or if Madagascar didn't have any 10's, but had 3 7's geographically close together? How about the opposite scenario, where a course was included in GolfWeek and Golf magazines T100 lists, but Vol5 of the CG only had it as a 5? or a 7.5?

For the Bill Schultz's of the world, has anyone played all of the 7's and above? Is anyone trying to? Anyone sick enough to deliberately seek out the 0's?

And finally for Tom Doak - anything you can share on publication plans for Vols IV and V, # of courses covered? # of 9's and above so far? Also any news on the books on Routing a Golf Course?

thanks for the feedback,

Michael Wolf

Michael:


That's a lot of questions!


I am just putting the finishing touches on Volume 5.  It should be ready to send to the publisher in two weeks, so that we can start shipping the books when I get back from Australia in October.


I just finished deciding what the Gourmet's Choice options would be for Volume 5, and I'm nowhere close to deciding them for Volume 4, so anyone angling to play all 90 of those must be a fortune teller.  I'm not sure anyone has even played all 54 from the first three books ... I've never been to Fowler's Mill myself, which Ran wrote up for Vol 3, and the intersection of people who have played both there and at Painswick must be close to nobody.  And I would bet my next job that no one has played all 72 including the choices in Volume 5; it could well be that no one who has played at Shanqin Bay has also ventured to Ootacamund in India or The Himalayan Golf Course.  I hope Bill Schulz does take up that challenge:  he may not like Audubon Park but he'll like the food in New Orleans.


Volume 5 covers 446 courses in eight chapters:  Japan, Korea, Greater China, The Subcontinent, SE Asia, Australia, New Zealand, and the Pacific Islands.  Three courses received a 10 from one panelist, five others received at least one 9, and there were a total of 24 courses that received an 8 from someone.  23 more received a 7.  Almost half of each of those totals represent courses in Australia, unsurprisingly.



Once this book is off to the publisher, I will start concentrating again on my routing book - the first of two volumes, anyway.  The plan is to publish that book next year, and then we'll have to see which comes next - the other half of the routing book or Volume 4 of The Confidential Guide.  It kind of depends on my work schedule:  I know everything I need to know for the routing book, but I've still got to travel a bunch for Volume 4.


One of the main reasons for reviving The Confidential Guide was to prod myself to go visit the parts of the world I haven't seen, and Europe, Africa and the Middle East are right at the top of the list of places I haven't traveled enough yet:  Masa has seen 410 courses in the region (!!), but I've only seen 67, and Ran less than that.  I don't think we will be ready to publish Volume 4 until both of us have seen 100 courses there.  But I'm about to get very busy again designing golf courses, so that may take a while.  However, I am headed to Europe with my wife at the end of August, to see a handful of courses in Iceland and Norway.  So I'm working on it!   

[Tom_Doak]

BTW when is volume 4 shipping?  I bought a set for myself and dad and wanted to see what that uncovers for Europe and Africa as I got the ME pretty covered.
Volume 4 - Europe, Middle East and Africa

Jeff:


We have completed Volume 5 first - Asia, Australia and New Zealand - because that's where my travels were taking me in 2016 and 2017.


Volume 4 is at least two years away, as detailed above.

[Daryl David]

I am headed to Europe with my wife at the end of August, to see a handful of courses in Iceland and Norway.  So I'm working on it!   

Tom,


Will you get to see Lofoten Links while in Norway? 

[Tom_Doak]

I am headed to Europe with my wife at the end of August, to see a handful of courses in Iceland and Norway.  So I'm working on it!   

Tom,


Will you get to see Lofoten Links while in Norway? 

Yes, I will be there for three days.  And I'll only be in the rest of Norway for three more!  But I will try to see what I can.

[Charles Lund]

I have three volumes of Doak's Confidential Guide.

In summer of 2017, I relied on it to make the decision to investigate St. Enodoc and ultimately made the decision to travel there when I discovered they offered a five round in seven  day ticket.  The course was one of the Gourmet's Choice.  I ended up playing five rounds on four other courses.


I could see myself doing that again, focusing on more depth of experience with one course. 


Having played about 175 different courses outside of North America since 2007, I obviously used other sources in planning trips, given The Guide became widely available long after I had begun playing golf overseas.


Charles Lund

[Ally Mcintosh]

What amazes me is that everyone on this site seems to know the exact number of courses they have played. I haven’t a clue (although I did keep a giant wall map of the UK with tiny stickers coloured for quality until I was about 16).

[Tony_Muldoon]

What amazes me is that everyone on this site seems to know the exact number of courses they have played. I haven’t a clue (although I did keep a giant wall map of the UK with tiny stickers coloured for quality until I was about 16).

Ally if you sit down with a map and think about it county by county, I bet you'll recall 90%+ quickly.  The next few days will bring some more to mind (thats the fun bit).


Admittedly my first total was only 130 or so but I update it roughly every year since. 221 at last count and likely only 1 new course this year.


Why I do it, I have no idea?

[James Brown]

What amazes me is that everyone on this site seems to know the exact number of courses they have played. I haven’t a clue (although I did keep a giant wall map of the UK with tiny stickers coloured for quality until I was about 16).

I have an Excel spreadsheet with all 1800+ rounds I have played since I took up the game in 1993.  Used to be a notebook.

[Sean_A]

I don't really use Tom's guide for deciding where to play, though that could change if I ever delve into the US deeply. By the time I read the book most of the courses in GB&I I am interested were already clocked.  For several years now I have been trying to see smaller courses, but I have been picky.  Because so many of these places aren't photo showcased I have relied on a few folks such as Mark Rowlinson. 

I created a Drive map of where I played in GB&I, linked the all the tours I did and listed the courses I most want to see.  I don't know how many there are, but it has to be over 250.  Though the total number is meaningless because I often enjoy returning to courses more than I do seeing new courses.

Ciao

[Wayne_Kozun]

What amazes me is that everyone on this site seems to know the exact number of courses they have played. I haven’t a clue (although I did keep a giant wall map of the UK with tiny stickers coloured for quality until I was about 16).

I have an Excel spreadsheet with all 1800+ rounds I have played since I took up the game in 1993.  Used to be a notebook.

And in you're a geek, like me, your rounds will be in the database on an app like Golfshot, or entered into a handicap website like the RCGA system here in Canada - although that is trickier for overseas courses.

[jeffwarne]

Well this went downhill fast


My first overseas trips I was merely tagging along with my host/hosts but eventually I morphed into Jim Finnegan's enchanting descriptive guidebooks which were like a Bible. That and a good map were essentials.


How did we ever survive without the internet?


Next came The Confidential Guide-an invaluable guide with commentary that piqued my interest-or not.
I found I often disagreed with the numbers as perhaps I simply overrate charm, scenery, lowkeyness/remoteness and history-and may well be less interested in "studying" architecture.
Proof of that is probably the fact that I have only walked two courses in my life without first playing them. TOC and Kington.


 and finally the internet where "UK golf guide" I think it was highlighted all courses on a map and I simply hit an area and explored from their map and any descriptions and pictures  I could find.


Golfclubatlas is the current starting point whose group cumulative knowledge has really unearthed some incredible gems and is generally my starting point now by running a search.
Pictures are great but so are verbal descriptions.

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