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Mark Fedeli

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USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« on: July 31, 2018, 07:53:00 PM »
The USGA announced today they plan to limit green-reading materials. I'd be all for the professional Tours eliminating yardage books as well. I had a spirited debate on Twitter today with some folks who completely disagreed.


So I was wondering, what is the history of professional golfers judging distances? I know Deane Beaman popularized "measuring and recording key yardages on the golf courses he played," according to this GD article: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-man-who-invented-the-yardage-book


But what happened before that? Was judging distance purely a combination of accumulated knowledge between the player/caddy, and simply going by feel? Is it accurate to say that, before Beaman, professional golfers and their caddies judged distances using only their eyeballs, memory, and experience?


(Edited for clarity)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 08:51:53 PM by Mark Fedeli »
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

BHoover

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Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2018, 08:20:31 PM »
Why would the USGA and R&A restrict the use of yardage books? That makes no sense. If anything, yardage books and rangefinders speed up play. Without distance aids, golfers will simply walk off distances, which means slow(er) pace of play.


If you don’t want to use a yardage book or rangefinder, then by all means go for it. But to suggest that distance aids should be prohibited is foolish.

Mark Fedeli

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Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2018, 08:22:14 PM »
I'm talking about professional golf. Sorry if that was unclear.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

BHoover

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Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2018, 08:26:44 PM »
I'm talking about professional golf. Sorry if that was unclear.


I’m not limiting my comment. If you do away with yardage books, pros will simply have caddies walk off distances.

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2018, 08:35:26 PM »
I'm talking about professional golf. Sorry if that was unclear.


I’m not limiting my comment. If you do away with yardage books, pros will simply have caddies walk off distances.


Okay, but you're limiting your reply to my actual question, which was about how this was all done prior to the 60s and 70s, when yardage books started to become more regular on the PGA Tour. To your final comment, courses could simply remove yardage indicators during the tournament.


In my utopia, pros will have to study the course beforehand, both from archival sources and the internet, and during their practice rounds. This gives more experienced and more well-prepared pros an advantage. There would also be a premium on better, more knowledgable caddies.


To me, the professional tours are simply entertainment products that I watch on my television. And I would find it vastly more entertaining if what I'm suggesting here was enacted. The only downside is that they would adapt very quickly and within a few years we'd barely notice a difference.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

BHoover

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Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2018, 08:37:51 PM »
I believe your argument has been made before (see pretty much every previous Melvyn thread/comment).

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2018, 08:42:08 PM »
I believe your argument has been made before (see pretty much every previous Melvyn thread/comment).


If that's so, I would find it extremely helpful if you linked to them here. Still, my point in posting this was not to debate TV viewing preferences but to find out the facts about how yardages were judged by professionals prior to Deane Beaman.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

BHoover

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Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2018, 08:45:04 PM »
I believe your argument has been made before (see pretty much every previous Melvyn thread/comment).

If that's so, I would find it extremely helpful if you linked to them here.
There’s a search function.

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2018, 08:47:43 PM »
Cool, man. Have a nice night.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

JESII

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Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2018, 09:48:19 PM »
Mark - I agree with you that it would be cool to see the guys go out to a new (to them) course and play by feel with a reasonable time limit on each shot (not allowed not walk off each). It's simply not realistic. Think about it...the Tour runs an entertainment business and birdies are the entertainment. Seeing Dustin Johnson think he's 170 when hes actually only 150 would be funny once then it wouldn't...


What I'm worried about in this deal is the Tour deciding they don't mind their guys using the books, and allowing them per a local rule. This could be the precedent for the Tour to break away from the USGA/R&A as it related to rules...and equipment could easily follow.


And I hate the green books these guys are worshiping...haven't made a single player a better putter, period.

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2018, 09:59:17 PM »
Jim, I totally understand that viewpoint, which is why I'm curious about how exactly distance judging was done in the past for professionals. From what I can find, until the 60s/70s, players and caddies used the method I would advocate for now.


I have a sneaking suspicion that after players got used to it, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. I'm not that great of a player and I feel 90% confident I can judge my yardages with no help whatsoever. And that's without a caddie or any serious studying. For the best of the best, I doubt they'd make that many more mistakes than they do now. I'd wager they'd make a similar amount, replacing the mistakes they make by being over-aggressive with mistakes they'd make by being uncertain.


Whether it's realistic or not is a whole other discussion, of course.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Peter Pallotta

Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2018, 10:17:14 PM »
Jim has always had a realistic view of the Tour and how it works and what it's about, and (sadly) I think that world is getting more 'realistic' every day, eg just recently the (now former) head of the PGA -- who on major policy issues always seemed to be very well-aligned with the Tour -- moved on to his new position with NBC Sports, where among other things he'll be responsible for golf coverage. So now you have the PGA, the Tour, and a major broadcaster all pulling in the same direction on issues like technology and birdie-fests and distance aids and bifurcation and maintenance practices etc. It's big money showtime 24-7 moving forward, and likely duller than ever...
The days when a Ben Hogan could walk off a course after a practice round and confidently tell the organizers -- based on nothing more than what his own eyes and shot making precision had told him -- that 'The scorecard is wrong - it lists the 7th at 157 yards, but it's only 154' are over...and golf is a poorer paler game because of it
IMO
Peter


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2018, 10:21:57 PM »
Smaller may be better when it comes to golf, huh?

Peter Pallotta

Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2018, 10:40:15 PM »
Jim, I'm enough of a romantic to be saddened by the ever-and-exponentially-widening gap between the pro game and the one millions of us play at home. Smaller may not be better for golf (the game), but with each passing year my heart is less and less interested in *the* game and more and more interested only in *my* game. Now, some might say: good, that's the way it *should* be; but I have a sinking feeling that, given my attitude, I'm part of the problem and not the solution, i.e. part of a growing demographic that sees the pro game as something akin to"Roller-ball", to some ugly machine like spectacle that is losing the soul and charm of this great sport. So, I play 6400 yard courses, often with persimmon and blades, never with any yardage aids except those stakes in the ground, and trudge along hoping that my local courses don't (too) soon become shopping malls and townhouses -- but I have that nagging suspicion that, somehow, my lack of interest in televised golf (multiplied by millions like me) will indeed have a detrimental affect on all golfers, sooner or later.   
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 10:47:01 PM by Peter Pallotta »

jeffwarne

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Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2018, 11:00:16 PM »
I'm all for eliminating green reading books on principle of restoring judgement and actual "green reading", as well as pace of play....


But it is amazing that under the USGA's watch, average and absolute driving(and now iron) distance has absolutle exploded over the past 25 years, resulting in the redesign, lengthening and bastardization(both of design and setup) of a high percentage of courses,,,


yet the USGA has in that time-gone after grooves, anchored putting technique, pricktractors (pun intended)and green reading books-none of which has EVER inspired a club to alter their course design or strategy.....


Ironic.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 12:48:28 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2018, 06:41:25 AM »
Take away the hole location sheets too?


This is so superfluous, all of this, and the USGA is just feeding the beast, trying to look proactive, when as JW infers, they've discovered nothing to do about a near geometric expansion of distance the ball goes for elite competition and the ripple effects of such inaction for 25 years.


And green reading books? I've only seen a handful but I've yet to lay eyes on one that can account for THAT day's precise pin...THAT days' moisture, roll and cut levels...THAT player's precise putting locale...and THAT day's fortunes.


cheers   vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2018, 07:29:20 AM »
An interesting comment was made on another thread akin to no yardage/green books and have the players use pull/elect-trolleys, which I guess translates as no caddies.
I wonder how scoring would change.......and pace of play as well?

atb

BCrosby

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Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2018, 08:12:33 AM »
 As Jeff W notes, the new rule drips with irony. By all means let's not dilute the skills necessary to play the game, but heaven forbid we address the elephant in the room - the extraordinary distance gains achieved over the last 20 or so years.

The new rule will also face big enforcement problems.

Bob 

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2018, 03:25:55 PM »
The USGA announced today they plan to limit green-reading materials. I'd be all for the professional Tours eliminating yardage books as well. I had a spirited debate on Twitter today with some folks who completely disagreed.


So I was wondering, what is the history of professional golfers judging distances? I know Deane Beaman popularized "measuring and recording key yardages on the golf courses he played," according to this GD article: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-man-who-invented-the-yardage-book


But what happened before that? Was judging distance purely a combination of accumulated knowledge between the player/caddy, and simply going by feel? Is it accurate to say that, before Beaman, professional golfers and their caddies judged distances using only their eyeballs, memory, and experience?


(Edited for clarity)


From most of the histories I have read, golf was mostly eyeball at the upper levels until the 40s when pros started getting a little more analytical.  All of the British history putts the distance question in the hands of the players with minimal input from their caddies.  Bobby Jones certainly played that way. 

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2018, 03:36:51 PM »
Eliminate all books. Period.


Allow range finders but not the ones that factor in elevation.


Speed up game. Now.

Kalen Braley

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Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2018, 03:44:24 PM »
Bryson Dechambeau does not approve of this!!


First his compass, now this?

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2018, 06:05:11 PM »
From most of the histories I have read, golf was mostly eyeball at the upper levels until the 40s when pros started getting a little more analytical.  All of the British history putts the distance question in the hands of the players with minimal input from their caddies.  Bobby Jones certainly played that way.


   Thanks, James.


Judging distance without yardage aids (either on the course or in a book) was such an important skill and integral part of playing the game in the not-so-distant past, that's why I don't think it's completely crazy to wish the pro tours would bring it back. The best of the best would have the least problem adapting to it, and it would increase the fun for viewers.


I know it will never happen, of course. But at least there's not some behemoth like the equipment industry standing in the way. I just think the casual golf fan thinks eyeballing or relying on memory/past experience is a lot harder than it actually is.


Honestly, the biggest impediment, aside from Tour player egos, might be the modern obsession with accessories.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2018, 07:03:25 PM »
I don't get a chance to watch much golf unfortunately over here, however I remember seeing these big white sheets that I think Damon Green, who is Zach Johnson's caddie was taking out on every green this year.  WAY overboard IMO and if these are banned good.Also remember seeing at the junior amateur just a week or so ago one of the kids taking out his rangefinder from literally 5 yards off the green!
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Steve Lang

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Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2018, 09:23:17 PM »
 8)  Didn't they judge things off those little trees or bushes strategically planted on left and right sides of fairway at 150 & 200 yards ;D ;D


this book ban seems yet another reason to not pay attention to the usga for most players, let alone join the insanity
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2018, 10:15:57 PM »

From most of the histories I have read, golf was mostly eyeball at the upper levels until the 40s when pros started getting a little more analytical.  All of the British history putts the distance question in the hands of the players with minimal input from their caddies.  Bobby Jones certainly played that way.


Which histories detail this information, and from where do you draw this specific information about Jones and how he played...?


Even without the provenance, it seems a gross generalization and part-"straw man" statement to equate (whatever part of) "all" of British history with a championship game today where a tour van changes lofts, kick points, micro-shaft tweaks, and the various elite tours play 120 different courses per year around the world... Those classic rock guys had about 30 courses total to play on that they played over and over again all their lives...I don't even know the first year the distances of the courses or holes in British history were known/announced to the players.


This rule is a red herring to distract from two decades of inaction in the face of a real problem, a real disconnect from the traditions of the game - the deleterious distance and straightness modern equipment has instituted in elite play.


I still wish to know a few of those histories though.


cheers  vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -