News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
I enjoy looking at the opening quote on Jeff Shackelford’s website from different architects. Recently I was reading an article about “The Cradle” and saw the Ross quote above associated with it. In the “Dark Ages” of golf course architecture pleasure and fun were supplanted with difficulty and length. Why did it take so long to re-embrace the Ross philosophy?


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2018, 01:47:55 PM »
Is your premise correct?  Donald Ross built a lot of pretty difficult golf courses for the equipment of the 1910's and 1920's.  Pinehurst was built for resort guests, but others of his courses were not.  And he never built a par-3 course, to my knowledge.


The dark ages were a reaction to those courses of the 1920's starting to look "too easy" with the equipment of the postwar era.  They were trying to recapture the difficulty that golf always had; they just left out the detail work that made the best courses great.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2018, 03:47:24 PM »
I don't remember the exact context, but I recall Pete Dye saying something like: "Do you know why people play golf? Because it's difficult." One of golf's great attractions is always thinking you can be, and trying to be better.


If challenge(s) isn't designed/built into golf courses, why would we play?
jeffmingay.com

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2018, 04:03:36 PM »
Let’s remember that many folks play or are involved in the game for other than purely golf or competitive reasons.....health, fitness, fresh air, the walk, social interaction both on and off course, business contacts, etc etc. For them challenge, difficulty, architecture etc etc may have little or even no relevance.
Atb

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2018, 04:05:09 PM »
Is your premise correct?  Donald Ross built a lot of pretty difficult golf courses for the equipment of the 1910's and 1920's.  Pinehurst was built for resort guests, but others of his courses were not.  And he never built a par-3 course, to my knowledge.


The dark ages were a reaction to those courses of the 1920's starting to look "too easy" with the equipment of the postwar era.  They were trying to recapture the difficulty that golf always had; they just left out the detail work that made the best courses great.


He built an awful lot of fun golf courses that to this day remain a pleasure to play with the idea that even difficult could provide a pleasurable pursuit. My point was not to highlight a par three course but rather that it’s good to see “fun” being referenced in their tag line.

Peter Pallotta

Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2018, 04:13:21 PM »
...
The dark ages were a reaction to those courses of the 1920's starting to look "too easy" with the equipment of the postwar era.  They were trying to recapture the difficulty that golf always had; they just left out the detail work that made the best courses great.

I've never read that insight/explanation before - thanks, very interesting and helpful indeed. (I hope you save all your posts Tom -- sometimes you toss off these pithy little gems and I wonder whether you realize how good & useful they'd be in other settings/books).

Bob C might say that those DA architects, besides lacking in aesthetic finesse, also made a 'category mistake' -- they wanted to replicate golden age difficulty, but misunderstood *why* and *how* those GA courses were difficult and thus 'misapplied' the challenge in their own courses.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2018, 07:07:35 PM »
...
The dark ages were a reaction to those courses of the 1920's starting to look "too easy" with the equipment of the postwar era.  They were trying to recapture the difficulty that golf always had; they just left out the detail work that made the best courses great.

I've never read that insight/explanation before - thanks, very interesting and helpful indeed. (I hope you save all your posts Tom -- sometimes you toss off these pithy little gems and I wonder whether you realize how good & useful they'd be in other settings/books).

Bob C might say that those DA architects, besides lacking in aesthetic finesse, also made a 'category mistake' -- they wanted to replicate golden age difficulty, but misunderstood *why* and *how* those GA courses were difficult and thus 'misapplied' the challenge in their own courses.


Peter,


There is a certain level of irony that the era of equipment some seem to think was ideal coincided with the period between 1950-1990 that the same some seem to think had a dearth of quality golf built.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2018, 07:45:35 PM »
Here's Ross on the distance issue in 1919.

June 4, 1919 Waterloo Courier -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2018, 10:52:56 PM »
Change the names of the pros and this article could have been written today rather than 99 years ago.

Keith Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2018, 11:02:00 PM »
Change the names of the pros and this article could have been written today rather than 99 years ago.


100% agree, that author showed great foresight!  Not sure whether Ross favored fun over challenge, but I certainly prefer the former.  I have a strong preference for courses where I can start and finish with one ball and the challenge is around the greens rather than searching for wayward long shots.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2018, 04:05:22 AM »
Is your premise correct?  Donald Ross built a lot of pretty difficult golf courses for the equipment of the 1910's and 1920's.  Pinehurst was built for resort guests, but others of his courses were not.  And he never built a par-3 course, to my knowledge.

The dark ages were a reaction to those courses of the 1920's starting to look "too easy" with the equipment of the postwar era.  They were trying to recapture the difficulty that golf always had; they just left out the detail work that made the best courses great.

Tom...I agree...golf was far more difficult back in the day.  That makes me believe the term "pleasure" should be taken as a VERY relative term.

Where have you read the "Dark Ages" was about recapturing difficulty? I have never come across this explanation for the change in architectural style.  I usually hear it was the end of WWII etc and people wanted to move on with different everything, golf was just part of that societal change.  The architect lineage between the great ODGs was largely broken by the war and never recovered. In the UK it seems more clear, lack of money even though the lineage was still somewhat in place through the graces of Hawtree, Cotton, Pennink, then Steel etc.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2018, 09:26:30 AM »
In a discussion of the rules a few months become there was some discussion about Calvinism's influence on the Rules of Golf.  The Rules of Golf kind of assume that the golf is cursed to eternal damnation and must be punished if he hits his ball OB or loeses it and can't fix imperfections on the course except in specific circumstances, although the  2019 revisions somewhat undo this.  I am wondering if it also had some influence on early golf architecture, especially since golf was tied to religion in its early days in St Andrews, Dornoch, etc.  Courses were meant to penalize those who strayed from the path of the almighty as they were to be curs-ed to eternal damnation

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2018, 12:27:07 PM »
Given that for the average golfer par is a good goal on almost any hole...


I think the key is not so much challenge vs fun, but is the course interesting.  What is interesting to most players who won't par most of the holes, most of the time.

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2018, 03:57:08 AM »
The dark ages were a reaction to those courses of the 1920's starting to look "too easy" with the equipment of the postwar era.  They were trying to recapture the difficulty that golf always had; they just left out the detail work that made the best courses great.


Tom,


Difficulty for who? It seems like this may have been the case, but they mistakenly focused on some and forgot the rest.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2018, 04:27:07 PM »

Where have you read the "Dark Ages" was about recapturing difficulty? I have never come across this explanation for the change in architectural style.  I usually hear it was the end of WWII etc and people wanted to move on with different everything, golf was just part of that societal change.  The architect lineage between the great ODGs was largely broken by the war and never recovered. In the UK it seems more clear, lack of money even though the lineage was still somewhat in place through the graces of Hawtree, Cotton, Pennink, then Steel etc.



Sean:  I guess I have never read it directly; Dick Wilson did not leave a lot in writing about what he was doing, and Trent Jones was happy to convince everyone he was doing things no one had ever thought of before.  But, The changes to Oakland Hills brought more attention to Jones than his new courses did, and I think he defended those changes on the basis that courses had lost a lot of their challenge.


Both Jones and Wilson had been very good golfers in their early years, and undoubtedly thought the game was easier later on.  That was certainly true of Mr Jones's last few courses:  The Cashen at Ballybunion, Treetops, and the RTJ Trail in Alabama were all very difficult.  I honestly thought by then he had grown so out of touch with actually playing golf himself that he just watched the pros on TV and overreacted to what he saw while building those resort courses.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2018, 04:42:05 AM »

Where have you read the "Dark Ages" was about recapturing difficulty? I have never come across this explanation for the change in architectural style.  I usually hear it was the end of WWII etc and people wanted to move on with different everything, golf was just part of that societal change.  The architect lineage between the great ODGs was largely broken by the war and never recovered. In the UK it seems more clear, lack of money even though the lineage was still somewhat in place through the graces of Hawtree, Cotton, Pennink, then Steel etc.



Sean:  I guess I have never read it directly; Dick Wilson did not leave a lot in writing about what he was doing, and Trent Jones was happy to convince everyone he was doing things no one had ever thought of before.  But, The changes to Oakland Hills brought more attention to Jones than his new courses did, and I think he defended those changes on the basis that courses had lost a lot of their challenge.


Both Jones and Wilson had been very good golfers in their early years, and undoubtedly thought the game was easier later on.  That was certainly true of Mr Jones's last few courses:  The Cashen at Ballybunion, Treetops, and the RTJ Trail in Alabama were all very difficult.  I honestly thought by then he had grown so out of touch with actually playing golf himself that he just watched the pros on TV and overreacted to what he saw while building those resort courses.

Tom

Thats a good point RE Oakland Hills.  I spose that Open is often cited as critical moment in the history of gca.  It could be argued that mentality has plagued the Open to this day.  I agree with the larger point that golf was most likely an easier game to play than during the prime of the American Golden Age.  At least some of those classic courses were designed to be very difficult and I think the game was much harder anyway because of equipment and conditions.  I spose golfers simply trusted archies to deliver a quality product and accepted that it would be diffcult. I am reminded of Darwin liking Sunny Old much more after the Haskell was invented because he thought the course was very difficult...certainly too difficult for his abilities.

I suspect archies these days spend more time on finding ways for courses to be playable then was done 100 years ago.  Although, things can get carried away, 5, 6 and more sets of tees is evidence of this.  The powers that be were far more pragmatic in choosing their sites than these days.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 04:44:54 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2018, 12:19:42 PM »
There is no question that Trent Jones designed Hazeltine as a direct challenge to the long-hitting pro golfers of the early 1960s. He believed equipment -- even ca. 1960 equipment -- was making older, conventional courses obsolete, and even doing so to some of his own courses. Specifically, he was ticked off about the low scores Sam Snead shot at his Dorado Beach course in Puerto Rico. His plan at Hazeltine was to create severe doglegs that forced the long hitters to keep the driver in the bag on many holes,.
"If Snead's still on his game in about five years, I'd like to see him try that at our course [Hazeltine]," Jones said in 1961. He said the course would have trees, traps and narrow fairways -- but no out of bounds -- to "penalize the expert, not the high handicapper."
After Hazeltine opened in 1962, Jones further described his concept: "Doglegs can be great holes because it is invariably at the crook, or angle, of the dogleg that the problem is created. By surmounting the problem, whether it be bunkers, trees, deep rough or water, the player is handsomely rewarded by dramatically cutting the distance of the hole. The more pronounced the dogleg, the greater the temptation, and usually the more disaster that is courted."
Jones was the dominant architect of his day, and his ideas about challenging the pros prevailed for a time. I think the controversial 1970 U.S. Open at Hazeltine began the turning of the tide away from Jones's style. We've been trying to find a balance between challenging and fun ever since.
 
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2018, 02:13:34 PM »
I love the challenge of the game personally. It can simultaneously deliver triumph and horrible, bone crushing defeat from a ball that moves as little as 2 Millimeters one way or the other.
A single digit move between 90 to 89 / 80 to 79 / 70 to 69 is worthy of celebration.
Many of us enjoy hearing an evolution of golf chatter directed our way:
Early Stage:                           -    "That's OK, just pick it up"
Game Improvement Stage:   -   "Now THAT was a nice swing"
Intermediate Stage:               -   "What did you say your index was?"
Smiling Stage:                       -   "F#(k you, just pick it up"
That one In particular is music to the ears of one always trying to get better.
But others measure differently. Given the choice, I will always walk and score. I have enjoyed the rhythm of the trek while trying to get better.   
For example, I had a ball with our GCA group of walkers and riders this past weekend slogging happily through 18 holes of a downpour up and down Northland.
Some weeks ago, I also enjoyed a walk-up while getting paired with a couple of seemingly very fit Good Players in a cart.
He indicated that his group always rode, "didn't use golf for exercise, only enjoyment." hmmm...
Nobody he played with kept score, didn't know what they shot and gave me a friendly "side Eye" for trying to secretly keep a scorecard

I like to combine my "steps" with the golf but we managed to enjoy each other's company.
Plus with two of them in the same cart, I was usually at my ball ready to golf at or before they setup so we all had a good golf day.

Question: Jeff M/Tom D/Jeff B et al Pros: what is your demand/mix for "Player's Courses" vs. general play in this economy?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 02:19:46 PM by V_Halyard »
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2018, 02:26:50 PM »

Based on 30 odd years (and a few normal ones) of experience, my design portfolio is about 57 to 3, or about 95% being players courses, and three being purposely tough.


You have to believe we already have all the tournament tough courses we need, no?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “Golf should be a pleasure, not a penance”-Donald Ross
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2018, 02:38:24 PM »

Based on 30 odd years (and a few normal ones) of experience, my design portfolio is about 57 to 3, or about 95% being players courses, and three being purposely tough.


You have to believe we already have all the tournament tough courses we need, no?
ya think?
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back