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Jim Nugent

Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2011, 11:18:39 PM »
St. Louis CC is easily the best course in town, the others all lack the subtlety, nuance and strategic thinking to come close.

Can you go over the strategic thinking required at SLCC?  I also believe, btw, it is (or was when I was there) the best course in the area. 

Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2011, 09:35:02 AM »
St. Louis CC is easily the best course in town, the others all lack the subtlety, nuance and strategic thinking to come close.

Can you go over the strategic thinking required at SLCC?  I also believe, btw, it is (or was when I was there) the best course in the area. 

Jim:

I hope you do not mind, but I will try to take a very simple shot at your question.  Most of the fairways are fairly level at Bellerive, and rarely does any particular side of a fairway offer any advantage over the other side.  Most of the holes are pretty straight forward, hazards around the green are usually equally distributed, and rarely can shots be run into the greens.  In contrast, St. Louis C.C. has little undulations, swales, and other uneven lies scattered around the course.  First this can require one to consider how to avoid the uneven lie.  Second, when one does have one of those uneven lies, a variety of options are available about how to play that next shot.  Next many of the holes allow for a punch shot, or for one to bounce or run the ball onto the green.  In addition, some holes reward the cautious play of avoiding the hole because of the more severe hazards at that portion of the green.

Some examples:

#6 offers the option of hitting a long iron or fairway wood, then leaving a wedge to the green.  Or one can hit driver and try to get into one of the bunkers surrounding the green leaving a possible up-and-down sandie for birdie.  However, if the lay-up is chosen, it is best to play the shot as if playing to a green sized portion of the right side of the fairway; as being on the left side of the fairway well leave a side-hill lie with the ball above your feet.

Depending on the tee shot on #9 your next side can be on top of the hill on the right side of the fairway with a level lie, but with a difficult cut shot needed to be played to leave oneself with a short pitch to the green for their third.  Or one can try to catch the down-slope which is closer the to the tee on the left side of the fairway.  If the down-slope is caught just right, you may possibly have a go for getting on the green in two or at least chipping for your third.  However, you may also be left with a down-hill/side-hill lie with which you may be tempted to play the foolish shot and try to get to within a wedge of the green; when instead you should take your medicine and hit a short iron over the creek and then leave yourself with a mid-iron to the green.

Finally, on #16 even if the pin is in the back right, the sensible shot is to hit at the front left of the green, and then allow the ball to run to the back of the green.


In response to an earlier posting about some college golfers not enjoying Shoreacres.  I do not think they represent the general opinion of most sub-scratch golfers.  Even though they can make many birdies during their visit, it is common to hear about PGA Tour pros making an effort to play courses such as Cypress Point, Pine Valley, Seminole, etc.  They can probably easily shoot say a 68 on one of these course, while on a similar day playing at the same level, maybe they would shoot 70 at Bellerive.  But I would guess they would find it more interesting if they could play smart and figure out how to turn that 68 at the classic course into a 65, by playing some different shots so as to take advantage where the course allows.  While at Bellerive, the only way they may find to lower their score is by hitting the ball closer to the hole, and putting better.

I know when I live in St. Louis most of the local pros enjoyed the opportunities to play at St. Louis C.C.  And when St. Louis C.C. had Sectional qualifying for the US Open, the medal score was usually only a couple under par (for 36 holes), and one could see how the contestants (who at this level are very good), had to think their way around the course.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Jeff_Stettner

Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2011, 12:12:39 PM »
Jim,
What Bill said...

At STLCC, there is not a single hole where the angles of approach, rub of the green and "right place to miss concept" don't come into play (how's that for a double negative). As a golfer, I find myself thinking on every hole. Bill's examples above are but a few... Other than the green on 17 and the reduced impact of the bank on the redan (16), the course compels from the first tee. It is almost the exact opposite at Bellerive. I do feel, however, that there is nothing wrong with a straightforward tournament golf course, stern and demanding -- if somewhat repetitive). It's just not what I like. 

Ryan Hillenbrand

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2018, 02:59:29 PM »
Coverage of the PGA shows a lot of pictures of Gary Player's 1965 US Open victory and its amazing how treeless the property was then compared to now.

I've always thought Bellerive was on a great piece of property but the trees and the Jones/Jones design has rendered it a typical major championship venue, not unlike Medinah or Congressional. A great "right out in front of you" course the pros like, but not particularly creative.

With tree removal and a redo by a Hanse, Doak, or other minimalists I think it could get back to a legitimate Top 100 course. Thoughts from those who have seen it?

I've heard around town that they're going to redo the greens again, but if I was a member and had the dough I'd vote for a total redo

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2018, 11:10:33 PM »
My only basis for judgement are foggy memories of the Nick Price PGA from the early 90s and watching the drone tour they put out in advance of this year's tournament.


I'll say this: The maintenance presentation of actually having the fairway bunkers be fairway bunkers makes a striking difference in the feel of the course. Obviously it doesn't change the strategy of any of the holes and ultimately the course still looks very tree-lined. But it does look miles better and more interesting than the same course would if all those same bunkers were stranded out in the rough and the fairways pinched to ribbons between them. So there's that.


Unfortunately, it's so wet and in St Louis right now that this feature of the course will probably be non-existent. It seems unlikely that any ball will roll at all this week. But here's hoping.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2018, 02:47:58 PM »
This YouTube clip, showing highlights from the 1965 U.S. Open, is interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WzVl0Z-szo


The course seems very different than the one on TV right now. I prefer the original bunkers. And, the long views of the surrounding landscape are pretty cool.
jeffmingay.com

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2018, 03:17:30 PM »
Well through one day the golf course is holding up fine. There are birdies, big crowds, and people are having fun. The golf course doesn't get love from the Geoff Shackelfords of the world because the bunkers aren't furry and its not in California, but it's great for a PGA Championship.


It's a bummer it's so soft, but considering all the rain and heat it's running firmer than I thought it would.
H.P.S.

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2018, 03:54:39 PM »
My memory from 1965 is that the pond on #6 used to be tight to the green.  Has that changed? 

Ryan Hillenbrand

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2018, 09:50:44 AM »
Jim


Can’t speak to 1965 but I caddied there in the early 90s and it looks to me to be in the same place.


Back in those days it was very common for members who sliced to put it in the pond off the tee shot from #5. But I haven’t seen that happen yet - I assume they’re hitting it way past it.

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2018, 07:30:17 PM »
Jim


Can’t speak to 1965 but I caddied there in the early 90s and it looks to me to be in the same place.


Back in those days it was very common for members who sliced to put it in the pond off the tee shot from #5. But I haven’t seen that happen yet - I assume they’re hitting it way past it.
Ryan, thanks for the info.  I also recall that a small pond used to guard the 17th green.  Do you know about that, and if so, when they took it out?
In 1965 the course played just under 7200 yards.  Almost as long as today.  But back then the players hit long irons and woods into many par 4s, and neither par 5 was remotely reachable.  You see why 282 won the US Open then against 264 now, and why in 1965 the leader after two rounds shot 140, which was exactly the cutline this year. 



Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2018, 07:54:58 PM »
the finishing hole is a real snoozer.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2018, 08:01:09 PM »
Hitting it 330 off the tee does that to many holes


cheers vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2018, 10:28:43 PM »
This YouTube clip, showing highlights from the 1965 U.S. Open, is interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WzVl0Z-szo


The course seems very different than the one on TV right now. I prefer the original bunkers. And, the long views of the surrounding landscape are pretty cool.


Very cool.  Thanks for posting that.  I wouldn't even recognize it to be the same course if you didn't tell me. 


I can't help going into a bit of a thought experiment when I think about the good old days vs today.  Imagine that the field of participants in 1965 showed up to the venue and got this year's version of the course.  I can imagine them thinking that it was the greatest course in the world due to the perfect conditions, smooth greens, etc.  There is definitely some inflation that creeps in over time for what we expect a course to be and also some flooding of the market where we take things for granted that would have amazed people in the past.


 

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #63 on: August 13, 2018, 01:51:29 AM »

I can't help going into a bit of a thought experiment when I think about the good old days vs today.  Imagine that the field of participants in 1965 showed up to the venue and got this year's version of the course.  I can imagine them thinking that it was the greatest course in the world due to the perfect conditions, smooth greens, etc.  There is definitely some inflation that creeps in over time for what we expect a course to be and also some flooding of the market where we take things for granted that would have amazed people in the past.
 
In 1965 Bellerive was a 7190 yard par-70 monster.  The extra yards would have made it even more of a back breaker.  But I think they would have had to raise par to 72 or even 73.  470 was pretty much the upper limit for par 4s, and Bellerive as played this year has 2 or 3 par 4s longer than that.

At the US Open Arnie shot a pair of 76s and missed the cut.  Jack squeaked in right on the cutline of 150, and was never a factor.  Deane Beman, one of America's top amateurs, was near the top of the leaderboard the first two days, showing again the seeming paradox that the shortest hitters can sometimes win or contend on the longest courses.     

Ryan Hillenbrand

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bellerive CC: 2013 and 2018
« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2018, 10:25:29 AM »
Jim


Can’t speak to 1965 but I caddied there in the early 90s and it looks to me to be in the same place.


Back in those days it was very common for members who sliced to put it in the pond off the tee shot from #5. But I haven’t seen that happen yet - I assume they’re hitting it way past it.
Ryan, thanks for the info.  I also recall that a small pond used to guard the 17th green.  Do you know about that, and if so, when they took it out?
In 1965 the course played just under 7200 yards.  Almost as long as today.  But back then the players hit long irons and woods into many par 4s, and neither par 5 was remotely reachable.  You see why 282 won the US Open then against 264 now, and why in 1965 the leader after two rounds shot 140, which was exactly the cutline this year.

Jim

They took out the pond out when Rees Jones renovated the course, in 2006 I think. It made it a much easier hole and there wouldn't have been as many birdies if there was a 75 yard long pond fronting like in 1992. I could be wrong but that decision may have had something to do with water management, as the renovation was coordinated with a large sewer district project that ran through the course.

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