In praise of Sand Valley!

[Joe Hancock]

Now we need to identify which courses have less “given up on” balls.....


Do the rules of golf say anything about looking for a shot that is potentially in play? Otherwise, I could imagine a player saving strokes via the rules....say, they hit it into the Devils A-hole, and they know they don’t have the game to extract it....just declare it lost without even looking in the bunker. I can also imagine those types of golfers applauding Phil’s action in the U.S. Open......

[jeffwarne]

Now we need to identify which courses have less “given up on” balls.....


Do the rules of golf say anything about looking for a shot that is potentially in play? Otherwise, I could imagine a player saving strokes via the rules....say, they hit it into the Devils A-hole, and they know they don’t have the game to extract it....just declare it lost without even looking in the bunker. ..

Joe,
you can ALWAYS declare a ball unplayable (one option is stroke and distance-same as a lost ball) so no need to not look

[Steve Kline]

You guys do realize that many golfers don't play by the rules, right?


The guys I got paired with were clearly out to have a good time. They were playing their first rounds at anything like Sand Valley - fescue, F&F, Keiser experience, etc. They clearly weren't there to play the rules as if they were in a tournament.

[Kyle Harris]

Just checked my Mammoth Dunes scorecard.


Yep. Still says "USGA Rules govern all play."

It's amazing how great golf can be when everybody begins rowing in the same direction.

[Paul Elam]

Visited Sand Valley September 21st -24th and had a great time.  2 rounds on SV, 2 rounds on MD, and one on the Sandbox. The weather had just turned cool and it ended up being perfect golf weather after a very hot and rainy early September.


Mammoth is a lot of fun to play, but not the most challenging of courses.  Frankly, a great idea for a big resort course.  It helped with pace of play.  3 or 4 of our group of 8 shot their best round of the season on Mammoth. W-I-D-E fairways and some short birdie holes(like the 14th where we saw 2 eagles and a few more birdies).  Everyone in the group liked Mammoth, especially the par 3's.  Only complaint was the area after #10 where they have a green, a tee box, and a food/beer cart in close proximity.  This are got very backed up and noisy, but I suspect they will be working on a halfway house


SV wasn't as dramatic but really enjoyed it.  As usual from C&C, a good mix of long and short par 3s and 4s.  SV was more grown in with a year's head start, and the greens more mature.  The short par 4 9th and long par 3 17th were particular favorites.


The Sandbox was a great warmup on day 1 and a perfect start to the weekend.  While I enjoy the Cradle at Pinehurst, the Sandbox is just a little more robust.  Its a great option for golfers who feel that 18 holes isn't quite enough, but 36 on the big courses are a little too much.


The opening post mentioned the flies, and we definitely saw a few.  But the mosquitos that came out at dusk were unlike anything I have seen.  We literally played the last 3 holes of SV in speed golf mode just to try to escape them.  The locals said that tremendous rains in August/Sept had caused them to be especially bad this year.  They were only an issue the last hour before sunset.


If you have a group of 8, I'd recommend the Leopold Cottages.  There are 3 of them away from the Lodge with views over a lake and each has its own fire pit.  Kind of a secluded part of what is a very busy resort (at least when we were there). You do have to take a shuttle down to the Lodge or Mammoth, but they are a great place to start or end a round if playing Sand Valley.

[JC Jones]

Solid report Paul.  I had a splash and go at SV last month and came away thrilled with the place. 


I live far enough away that the logistics are only 4-5 hours shorter than going to Bandon so I’ve not yet decided if there was enough to persuade me to foresake a trip to Bandon in the future. But, what an addition to an already spoiled region.  We usually do quick trips each year to Pinehurst and Kiawah; I can see Sand Valley serving the same purpose for people in Chicago, Milwaukee and Minneapolis.

[Steve Lang]

   JC, is it worth the drive around the lake from the 45th parallel in Michigan?

[JC Jones]

  JC, is it worth the drive around the lake from the 45th parallel in Michigan?

That's a tough one.  Since you're headed back to Texas from northern Michigan, I think it would be worth the detour (esp if you went the northern route and stopped at Greywalls for a day).


That being said, for me, I don't know that I would leave any of my time in northern Michigan every summer to go over to Wisconsin.  With Arcadia Bluffs (Bluffs and South), CD, Kingsley, Forest Dunes and Belvedere, I think we have just as much if not more compelling golf right at home. 

[Michael Whitaker]

I wanted to bump this thread as I revisited Sand Valley Resort this past week. We played two rounds on the Mammoth Dunes course, one round on Sand Valley, and one round on the Sandbox.

I was just as pleased with the courses as I was the first time around last year. Mammoth is a unique course that offers great fun for a well played hole. Yes, it allows you to get away with some not-so-perfect shots, but what's wrong with that for a resort course? Jerry Kluger and I played a match each day, so we were not focused on the card, and MD was a blast for our matches. Jerry had a 17 year old caddy who was in his third season of working at SV and the guy was perfect!!! We could not have had more fun.

The Sand Valley course is a fantastic C&C creation, but if you have seen a lot of C&C courses (as Jerry and I have) you will not encounter much you have not seen before. If your C&C experience is limited it offers some of their classic hole designs. It is a wonderful course and worth a yearly visit.

As it stands, being from South Carolina, I'd rather visit SV than travel  to the West Coast for Bandon Dunes. I've visited Bandon several times and don't find the extra travel time and expense that appealing versus what's on offer at Sand Valley. When the Doak course opens at SV I think I would travel to Wisconsin in a 4 to 1 ratio to Oregon.

One complaint about SV on this trip... the Sandbox was a complete disappointment this trip. About half the holes were set up between 50-60 yards, and 1/2 of the remaining holes were around 100 yards. It was obvious they set the course up to speed up pace of play. I was VERY disappointed and bored with course... even though I made a hole-in-one on the first hole!!! If I had been in a surly mood I might have asked for a refund. It was that disappointing. I was very sad for Jerry as it was his first time to see the course. VERY disappointing.

If they keep their prices within reason Sand Valley could be an annual trip for me as it's easy to reach from South Carolina.

Whit

PS - they seem to have mostly fixed the fly problem in the restaurants. There was an occasional Kamikaze, but nothing like we experienced last year. HOWEVER... the flies will eat you alive on the courses, especially Mammoth Dunes. If you visit Sand Valley DO NOT forget to bring some high-powered insect repellent!!!

[astavrides]

One complaint about SV on this trip... the Sandbox was a complete disappointment this trip. About half the holes were set up between 50-60 yards, and 1/2 of the remaining holes were around 100 yards. It was obvious they set the course up to speed up pace of play. I was VERY disappointed and bored with course... even though I made a hole-in-one on the first hole!!! If I had been in a surly mood I might have asked for a refund. It was that disappointing. I was very sad for Jerry as it was his first time to see the course. VERY disappointing.


PS - they seem to have mostly fixed the fly problem in the restaurants. There was an occasional Kamikaze, but nothing like we experienced last year. HOWEVER... the flies will eat you alive on the courses, especially Mammoth Dunes. If you visit Sand Valley DO NOT forget to bring some high-powered insect repellent!!!

I was there for the first time last month. I agree both long courses are very fun. And I agree the sandbox is too short. I definitely wouldn't pay $75 to play it (which is what they charge for non-resort guests). I wonder how much they would frown on just playing from the tee signs instead of where the markers are set that day--especially if it isn't busy and you aren't taking divots.


And yes, the flies on Mammoth almost ruined the experience for me. I was actually shouting in pain from some of those bites. (luckily the pain is fleeting). Hard to focus on hitting a shot when every time you take your stance you get bitten at least once, usually more. I sprayed myself with bug spray 4 times on the front nine. I saw a worker on 5 and one on 8 and ask for fly advice, and they didn't have any. Then I asked the guys at the turn and they said your bug spray needs at least 30% DEET. I looked at my can and it was 8%. They were kind enough to give me their 25% DEET can (both were the brand 'Off!', so it pays to read the ingredients label). I sprayed at the turn then didn't get bitten again.

[Mike Hendren]

I will be on The Sandbox at 5:30 p.m. this afternoon.  Surprised by the length comments. I find golf to be the most fun from 50  yards in and Sandbox is as good as it gets. For pure fun and joy I have played none better. The course is a pure parade of greens and I wouldn’t mind if every single hole played at 50 yards.


Bogey

[Josh Tarble]

I found the sandbox to be less fun while hitting full wedges and more fun while trying to hit running shots with a 8 or 9 iron.  To me the sandbox was not a place where I was even attempting to make a score and instead playing a fun match hitting shots I would not normally attempt. 


If I want to hit shitty wedges from 80 yards, I can do that anywhere.  If I want to run a ball 50-60 yards, bouncing along the turf, I can't do that many places.

[Mike Hendren]

Just back from Wisconsin.  The Sandbox remains on my list of favorite courses I've played.  Alongside the likes of:

LuLu
Cape Arundel
Rolling Hills CC (where I attempted to grow up)
Lawsonia Links
Walton Heath Old
The Old Course
Huntercombe
Bandon Trails
Brora
National Golf Links of America

I grew up playing bump and run and its the only part of my game that remotely hints that I was once a 4 handicapper.  Perhaps I'm biased because it leaves out the embarrassing tee to green game that I now display.   There is no course where I am more happy than The Sandbox. 

Besides, shooting 60 beats the heck out of carding a smooth 102 any day of the week. 

Bogey

[PCCraig]

I was down there a couple of weeks ago. Played a quick late evening round on an empty Sand Valley...pretty terrific at golden hour. Stayed overnight which I love as I think the rooms, food, etc. are terrific in the lodge. Played early the next morning at SV as the 2nd or 3rd group out which was nice. Had James as a looper who was absolutely terrific and certainly helped me shoot a much better score than I deserved.

[Shelly Jones]

I agree with Daryl David's assessment of the two vs. the courses at Bandon. Played the Sand Valley courses in June ( thankfully had no problem with bugs). Both are fun courses to play. The Sandbox was a bit of a disappointment as every hole was about the same distance (maybe 75-90 yards each) and overpriced for what you get. The facilities are getting much better. More lodging has been completed and you can see a lot more development ahead. We will return when Tom Doak's course has been put in ( they were just starting to clear the terrain when we were there).


A really fun set of courses, but for ambience and the array of courses, I think Bandon is very hard to replicate.


Btw, it might be easier to get to SV from Madison; takes perhaps 90 minutes to drive mostly freeway. And yes, Lawsonia Links was the unexpected surprise. Well worth playing.

[Michael George]

I just came back from a golf trip with 16 of my buddies to Sand Valley and Lawsonia Links.

First, Sand Valley Resort is incredible and with time to build more courses, it will certainly be one of the best golf resorts in the US. Is it better than Bandon?  I am not sure as that is a tall order.  However, both are so good that I will leave it to the overly analytical to decide. 

How would I split up 10 rounds at Sand Valley and Mammoth Dunes - 5-5 (with Sandbox when time permits after any round). They are that even and that good.  However, they do provide different things if you want to slightly adjust that ratio. 

Sand Valley is a better (more natural feeling) walk and probably plays in a better setting.  There is an incredibly large dune that dominates a north ridge on the back 9 and the 9th plays into a gorgeous area with a lake and fire pits to the south.  The par 5s are really good and are probably the best holes on the course.

Mammoth Dunes likely wins a hole by hole match for most average retail golfers, which was most of my group.  In fact, most of my group preferred Mammoth Dunes (even though I am really split).  In fact, about 6 of them told me it was the most fun that they have ever experienced playing golf.  Is it a true test of golf for the traditionalist - no.   However, it is incredibly fun.  I understand some criticizing it for its width, but I think most golfers like getting off the tee and just not being out of hole just after the first shot.   

The Sandbox is a leisurely par 3.  Yes, it is very short....to the point that it is almost as much of a putting course as a par 3 course.  The simplest way I can put it - if you are keeping score, it isn't for you.  It is designed for friends to have fun together after a round at Sand Valley or Mammoth Dunes and have bets on "closest to the pin" - whether from the tee or some crazy part of the green.  I would say 90% of the groups have cooler bags of beer and 50% are listening to music.  You can literally putt from tee to green on 12 of the 17 holes. 

I also played Lawsonia Links.  I enjoyed it.  Nice golf course.  However, don't be fooled by its name.  It isn't close to a links golf course.  In fact, if you aren't a high ball hitter, I can see you having a hard time with the golf course.  It is worth seeing once, but don't put me in the camp who believe that it is in the same class as Sand Valley or Mammoth Dunes.  IMHO, there is no comparison. 

[Peter Flory]

Too bad it's only a 4 month peak season in Wisconsin.  So much great golf now and the vast majority of it is public. 

[Tom_Doak]

I was at Sand Valley a month ago and the most striking thing for me was that the demographics trend significantly younger there than at most of the othet big resorts.  The green fees are more affordable to start, but the big savings is that a lot of guys don't have to buy an airline ticket to go there, and that $500 makes a big difference in who can swing it.  It was nice to see there is another generation on the way that enjoys good golf!

[Doug Wright]

I visited Sand Valley for two days a year ago, and to those who think SV superior or comparable to Bandon I say “No Way”! And not just because Bandon is oceanside and fly-free. The golf at Bandon is simply superior.  Although I particularly like Mammoth Dunes for its playability, the two original Bandon courses—Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, require a variety of shot-making and challenges that aren't matched at Sand Valley. Add in Old Macdonald and Bandon Trails, and there simply isn’t any comparison. Although I prefer the Sandbox to the Bandon Preserve, I prefer the Punchbowl to both!  Of course, there is a new course coming on line at each place, but I suspect that will only widen the gap....

[Michael George]

I was at Sand Valley a month ago and the most striking thing for me was that the demographics trend significantly younger there than at most of the othet big resorts.  The green fees are more affordable to start, but the big savings is that a lot of guys don't have to buy an airline ticket to go there, and that $500 makes a big difference in who can swing it.  It was nice to see there is another generation on the way that enjoys good golf!

Tom - I made the same remark to people in our group.  I think the biggest factor is proximity.  It doesn't involve 2 days of travel.  When you have a young family and work, it is hard to take 2 days just to get to and from a destination.  I have planned trips for my group pretty much everywhere and they want to go back to Sand Valley before anywhere else because of the convenience and little time away from home. 

It is certainly more lively than most golf destinations.  Maybe that is the reason for all of the short holes at The Sandbox.  It clearly was designed with drinking in mind.

The word of mouth around the resort is certainly very excited about your course.  I have found that caddies are usually a good source of information at a resort.  All of our caddies were talking that management and the superintendent's staff think it is going to be special.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I was at Sand Valley a month ago and the most striking thing for me was that the demographics trend significantly younger there than at most of the othet big resorts.  The green fees are more affordable to start, but the big savings is that a lot of guys don't have to buy an airline ticket to go there, and that $500 makes a big difference in who can swing it.  It was nice to see there is another generation on the way that enjoys good golf!

How many of those young guys were also staying on property, Tom? (Versus cheap motels in the area.)
I hear you about the green fees, but the lodging rates AND meal pricing (for central Wisconsin) are more in-line with mega-resorts. It's sad.


While the breakfast sandwiches and "halfway house fare" are a real bargain, the dinner pricing in the lodge rivals downtown Chicago restaurants and at about 1/3 the quality.


Several founders have made this known to "senior and junior".

[Michael Whitaker]

Ian - I have to second your comments about the accommodation prices. $350 per night was the least expensive price for onsite rooms this summer. I'm sure that will go up. The prices are definitely pushing many to book rooms in neighboring cities like Wisconsin Rapids. As Tom says, the fact that a good many can visit Sand Valley without having to purchase a plane ticket is making the resort more accessible. I hope SV is not factoring that airplane savings into their pricing scheme.

[JWinick]

There are less than 100 hotel rooms.  We stayed last year at the Shermalot, which is very close but it is not a place i would stay for more than one night. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I was at Sand Valley a month ago and the most striking thing for me was that the demographics trend significantly younger there than at most of the othet big resorts.  The green fees are more affordable to start, but the big savings is that a lot of guys don't have to buy an airline ticket to go there, and that $500 makes a big difference in who can swing it.  It was nice to see there is another generation on the way that enjoys good golf!

How many of those young guys were also staying on property, Tom? (Versus cheap motels in the area.)
I hear you about the green fees, but the lodging rates AND meal pricing (for central Wisconsin) are more in-line with mega-resorts. It's sad.


While the breakfast sandwiches and "halfway house fare" are a real bargain, the dinner pricing in the lodge rivals downtown Chicago restaurants and at about 1/3 the quality.


Several founders have made this known to "senior and junior".


Plus, with this new young crowd comes new challenges.
The drinking and overall rowdiness at Sand Valley has also become an issue with police called on several occasions I'm told.


Seems this new demographic also needs to understand another aspect of the game: respect.
Getting sh-t faced until the wee hours, fighting on the putting green and keeping other guests awake then playing your rounds in 5:15 because you "got so wasted last night" is definitely not "golf as it was meant to be"....

If you feel the need to call the police because young men are getting rowdy on a golf trip perhaps it's time to stay home. I do believe that getting sh-t faced, fighting on the putting green and keeping other guest awake is exactly how "golf was meant to be". You just have to have some patience and let these young lads learn how to wake up and play off a drunk. That takes some experience and it's that kind of experience that will grow the game.

[Brock Lynch]

If you feel the need to call the police because young men are getting rowdy on a golf trip perhaps it's time to stay home. I do believe that getting sh-t faced, fighting on the putting green and keeping other guest awake is exactly how "golf was meant to be". You just have to have some patience and let these young lads learn how to wake up and play off a drunk. That takes some experience and it's that kind of experience that will grow the game.

John,


You're kidding....right?

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