[Tom_Doak]

Bogey and Ally
Please explain why the green paint analogy is negative. And C&C has built many courses with huge greens. I saw Mammoth as being different than a lot of minimalist design now seemingly being repeated out there

Well for me it looks look like an abstract piece of art rather than a natural landscape.


This isn’t necessarily a negative. But it doesn’t look minimalist.

Mammoth Dunes is not minimalist, from the few holes of it I saw - but has David ever said it was meant to be?  Or is everyone just throwing around a term they don't care to define?  To me it looks like he routed over some of the most dramatic land, and then had to soften it by moving earth.


From that recap of the 14th hole at Mammoth that was posted here during construction, I surmised they had moved more dirt on that one hole than we did for 18 holes at The Loop.  Or is it 36?

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,


I suspect most on GCA....care more if the course looks naturalistic as opposed to minimalist, regardless of how much dirt was moved (to a reasonable level)


In my mind i always come back to that PacDunes exercise we did years ago where we tried to guess what was heavily modified and not, and our guesses were 50/50 at best.

[Michael Whitaker]

Mammoth Dunes is not minimalist, from the few holes of it I saw - but has David ever said it was meant to be?  Or is everyone just throwing around a term they don't care to define?  To me it looks like he routed over some of the most dramatic land, and then had to soften it by moving earth.

From that recap of the 14th hole at Mammoth that was posted here during construction, I surmised they had moved more dirt on that one hole than we did for 18 holes at The Loop.  Or is it 36?

Interesting comment on the dirt movement. In this video Kidd says that they hardly moved any dirt: 

https://youtu.be/k9yo3DxD1IY

He says, “There was no effective earth moving. We never took dirt and put it in equipment and moved it from spot to spot.”

[ward peyronnin]

Well I loved the way it played I don't care if it looks like a piece of abstract art. I refer back to Yale and I suppose that could be deemed to look like an abstract work of art.
MM goes across the grain without appearing forced. From those i talk to the most common comment is that it is "different".
Combine those sentiments and I arrive at a reason why MM is more interesting than a lot of courses in my view

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ward, I like abstract art a lot.


My comment is that it looks created rather than natural. But if it plays well and differently then that is all you can ask. Plus it will soften over time.


It’s an exciting looking course, no doubt.

[Tom_Doak]

He says, “There was no effective earth moving. We never took dirt and put it in equipment and moved it from spot to spot.”

Maybe not.  But they were pushing a hell of a lot of dirt from the high side of the fairway to the low side on #14 the days I was there.


Plus, I remember when we started Pacific Dunes, Jim Urbina told Tony Russell we were going to tiptoe around the site and hardly move any dirt, and he shouldn't go through any area unless we said it was okay.  When we stopped him from taking equipment through #16 fairway one day, Tony was surprised.  He hadn't thought we were serious, because that's what they'd said on Bandon Dunes, and he knew they'd done no such thing.

[Paul Elam]

Paul Elam: I played the Sandbox twice this past week, and it took our foursome about 90 minutes to play both times.  We are generous with concessions, so that helped.  I had been told to expect the round to take about two hours.  Separately, flies were only a very modest issue and wholly resolved by spraying some Deet 30 bug spray on my white crew socks.  They were a non-issue up at Craig’s Porch.

Thanks CJames.  This info is very useful...

[William_G]

He says, “There was no effective earth moving. We never took dirt and put it in equipment and moved it from spot to spot.”

Maybe not.  But they were pushing a hell of a lot of dirt from the high side of the fairway to the low side on #14 the days I was there.


Plus, I remember when we started Pacific Dunes, Jim Urbina told Tony Russell we were going to tiptoe around the site and hardly move any dirt, and he shouldn't go through any area unless we said it was okay.  When we stopped him from taking equipment through #16 fairway one day, Tony was surprised.  He hadn't thought we were serious, because that's what they'd said on Bandon Dunes, and he knew they'd done no such thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqmIMvWnIV8

The Ocean hole at Old Mac is a great example of successful earth moving

fun stuff

look forward to seeing this latest Keiser effort in Wisconsin soon

LOL

cheers

[Mike Hendren]

In using the spilled paint bucket analogy, I was thinking of surplus fairways  at Mammoth Dunes, notably right and long off the 10th tee and short left off the 14th tee.   There are significant square feet of fairway in those locations that might never see a divot.  This form of "sideways" architecture is purely cosmetic in my opinion.

Moreover,  the short fescue rough at Mammoth Dunes provides a nice color tapestry and excellent recovery chance - I wish it had been  utilized more extensively.

Mike

[V_Halyard]

Here is an opinion from a native Wisconsin/Cheesehead/PackerFan that grew up working summers on part time lumber crews in the Sand Valley area in high school. (Pre-labor and OSHA laws) I also have deep familiarity with the Sand Valley project.

First, I am ball-parking that most will Doak scale the SV courses at or above 8 so the air is relatively rare however you slice it.
And yes, it is fair to say that there is no ocean, but aerials do not do justice to the incongruity of the superior and surreal level of golf delivered in the middle of Wisconsin. Plus you can enjoy a Spotted Cow beer and a brat and a slider all for about $4.00 in sunshine and warmth. It needs to be seen to be believed.

Regarding expenses, a shoulder season trip for a DMK Bandon-Like and C&C Sand Hills-Lite experience will soften some of the cost. From a regional perspective, this is within a 3-4 hours drive for about 20 Million of us that reside on the westside of Lake Michigan.

About Michigan, love it but Michigan golfers are spoiled with your “Tom Doak Lives here attitude”, your Crystal Downs, Your Loop, Your Arcadia Bluffs, your Oakland Hills, Stoatin Brae, golf sunsets over the postcard-pretty sand-dune-lined western shore of Lake Michigan etc, etc...  Sand Valley reduces our Michigan envy quotient. (Jokes people)

Next, like most northerners, we are short-season hostages and will unabashedly binge on our golf between May and October before the snow flies. This year, Mammoth Dunes bunkers had snow in them on the Sandbox’s opening day May 01. The location and architectural quality of Sand Valley makes it an unusually accessible architectural oasis roughly equidistant from Chicago, Milwaukee and Minneapolis, where golf insanity reigns.  Three to four hour drives in spring/summer/fall are nothing. Do the math, $40 in gas vs. $1400.00 in airfare.  Amortize that with greens fees. Then if I do another Keiser loop for half price, I’m on fire.

Also please know we would absolutely love for all of GCA to come to Sand Valley but are pressuring none.  Each person that chooses not to visit SV for whatever reason means Morgan Clawson and I might be able to get a replay tee time on a sold-out tee sheet.

Finally, about Lawsonia Links. It is an astonishingly fantastic track. It pairs tremendously well with a Sand Valley journey as a must-play. Add a Sentry World side trip or an Erin Hills for low handicappers. I would assume you all already know the joy of Kohler.
The Wisconsin ROTA is real. Coore and Crenshaw with Jimmy Craig, David McLay Kidd and the Packers. Nowhere else is that happening. Go Pack Go.

[Kalen Braley]

VHal,


I get where you're going with this from a travel perspective.


As a counter point from the San Fran area up thru the Seattle Metro area, you have basically the same amount of people...all within an 8 hour drive of Bandon...so double the gas cost from $40 to $80 for most of them.  But still a ton cheaper than flying to Chicago and then driving another 3-4 to get to SV. 


And Bandon is year round golf with an ocean, all the amenities.. and perhaps most important without all the nasty flies... 

[V_Halyard]

VHal,


I get where you're going with this from a travel perspective.


As a counter point from the San Fran area up thru the Seattle Metro area, you have basically the same amount of people...all within an 8 hour drive of Bandon...so double the gas cost from $40 to $80 for most of them.  But still a ton cheaper than flying to Chicago and then driving another 3-4 to get to SV. 


And Bandon is year round golf with an ocean, all the amenities.. and perhaps most important without all the nasty flies... 

Agree on all points. No arguments.
The flies we definitely epic. Same as Minnesota.
There is a subtle joy in a midwest summer where you can enjoy a warm day or evening in shorts with a beer deep into sunset at a steady 75 to 80 degrees. 
Sand Valley, at the least, gives the middle of the country a "Near Bandon" experience.   

[Jeff Schley]

Go Pack Go.[/font][/size]

Vaughn I agree with everything you said except for the above!

[Mark Pritchett]

The defendant guesses PD and BT 3 times each. SV and MD once.  Fwiw,  I had turtle soup once and thought it was pretty good - let's say a 6 or 7 on a scale of 10, but I didn't see any need to ever order it again, opinions being objective and all.

Now that I think about it, only one time did I see Condredge Holloway complete a 2 point conversion to Larry Seivers on October 26, 1974 in Neyland Stadium to beat Clemson, but I'm pretty sure I liked that too.

Bogey

Brilliant!

[Jay Mickle]

Pulled pork taco, BBQ brisket slider and a Stella(didn't know about Spotted Cow) over looking the 18th green from Craig's Porch. $6.00
Highest Praise for Sand Valley.

[William_G]

well done Jay 

[PCCraig]

Made a day trip down to Sand Valley yesterday from the Twin Cities, primarily to play all 18 at Mammoth Dunes but I ended up playing nearly every hole at the property.


After reading the thread here I would of assumed that the campus would be much more of a construction zone, but it seemed generally the same as a year ago when I spent a weekend there. There is a new restaurant wing, a new driving range, and a new alternate 6th on SV where the old range used to be. Noticed the construction of a few super massive looking homes off the par-3 course.


SV has matured quite a bit in the last year from a turf standpoint. It seems that the greens are playing much, much softer despite it being very dry there the last few weeks. I might speculate that they are attempting to tone the conditions down a bit in order to help the typical resort guest get around a little quicker.


I was shocked how busy the resort was, in particular on a Monday. The courses were packed in the morning and we played a ~4:30+ round with groups all over the place. The afternoon round at MD was much more serene and we didn't see another group until the 11th tee and we never had to wait for a shot. A much more enjoyable experience.


I enjoyed the full Mammoth Dunes course, but the course is a little hit or miss to me. There are some really good holes, and then some holes that don't really make a lot of sense from an architectural standpoint (why is the best angle into the 2nd green from the far right from the furthest point away from the primary fairway hazard?) I think the best holes on the course are from 6-10. The par-3's might actually be the best set of holes there, the long uphill 4th is really cool, as is the island 8th and the stunning 13th. The 16th played to a back left pin and the hole is fairly basic as you just have to fly it to the pin as the front right slope won't help you much.


The fairways are massive and frankly it might be the most boring driving golf course in the world. I am hardly Brooks Koepka, but you can stand there and just swing out of your shoes with little thought of hazards or frankly strategy.


It's a better second shot course in some ways, but again I think MD lacks a bit in the designs of the putting surfaces which are pretty straightforward with very little internal contour. David Kidd has built some cool, wild, greens at places like Huntsman Springs but MD's greens are nearly flat in comparison. All in the name of "fun"?


I do really enjoy the original Sand Valley course. It's a really solid design with a lot of good holes. I think some of the holes that are the most visually attractive tend to be the ones that people remember, but many of the more "basic" looking holes early on the back nine are the ones that I tend to really enjoy. Many of those holes remind me more of Prairie Dunes and are subtly very fun. The punchbowl par-3 17th is just an awesome hole.


We skipped around and probably played 15 of the Sandbox holes. That was a lot of fun and it was cool to see all the different green designs that the C&C team dreamed up. Lots of ideas clearly left on the "cutting room floor" from some "big" course were pulled out and built. Fun stuff. Not as dramatic as their 13 hole Bandon Preserve, but the green designs might be more fun to play to.


Nice to see the resort doing so well. Will be interesting to see where/when they go for the 4th course.

[Steve Kline]

I played the Sand Valley course yesterday. There was a significant frost delay and it was cold and windy. Because of the frost delay, we started on the back nine.


But, the course was a lot fun! I love that I could play one ball all the way around. Even though the course is wide, with the wind and the greens, I still shot my average score.


I really liked the set of par 3s - a sort of redan for the 3rd, two wonderful short par 3s on the front (although both played in the same wind direction), and an awesome punch bowl 17th.


As I sit and think about the round, was there ever a dogleg right? I guess the second, but it didn't really play that way because you had to lay up off the tee.


Lots of visual deception off the tee and there were numerous centerline bunkers to navigate. So, while the fairways were wide, there was still interest in driving to certain spots and not just blasting away.


Very interesting greens. I started to list the ones I liked and the list got too long. The sixth was particularly interesting with the drop off in the back. I also really liked the 15th with the large hump in front of the right side.


I would love to spend a week here and play the course with a variety of pin placements. And, I'd like to play from the back tees. It would have made the tee shots a little more interesting for me.


I was supposed to play Mammoth and Sand Box today but the weather is awful. So I pushed them to Tuesday.

[JC Jones]

I love that I could play one ball all the way around.

You can do this on any golf course in the world.

[Steve Kline]

I love that I could play one ball all the way around.

You can do this on any golf course in the world.

Yes, if you dead nut it straight all day. In the old days that was true for me.


Most of us however hit if offline. So, if you don't take the comment so literally, then you realize that Sand Valley allows for offline tee shots to be found and played. Although you will have a hard time scoring from some of them.

[V_Halyard]

Go Pack Go.

Vaughn I agree with everything you said except for the above!

Following up... K. Mack ROI looks pretty good.

[Jeff Schley]

Go Pack Go.

Vaughn I agree with everything you said except for the above!

Following up... K. Mack ROI looks pretty good.

Indeed (sans yesterday).  BTW what a steal of a win for the Pack against Da Bears on opening weekend!
Bears I think are too good on defense to go anything less than 9-7 so optimistic for 10-6 or so and that will mean a playoff birth.
How is the Sand Valley project Vaughn?

[Joe Hancock]

I love that I could play one ball all the way around.

You can do this on any golf course in the world.

Yes, if you dead nut it straight all day. In the old days that was true for me.


Most of us however hit if offline. So, if you don't take the comment so literally, then you realize that Sand Valley allows for offline tee shots to be found and played. Although you will have a hard time scoring from some of them.

I’ve walked around the property numerous times and have found quite a few golf balls lying around the periphery, so the truth of the matter is somewhere between the literal and not so literal.....

[Peter Pallotta]

 
Joe - that would be the "shmiteral", the sort-of-half-way mid-point of which you so speak. No one ever raises it, but I think that's where Mr. K's true genius lies, ie in identifying an unmet need in the retail market for golf courses that embrace the shmiteral. It's the most significant insight in decades: the golden age was charmingly not-so-literal, the dark ages were painfully literal, but the real money-making & award winning courses are all Shmiteral!

[Steve Kline]

I love that I could play one ball all the way around.

You can do this on any golf course in the world.

Yes, if you dead nut it straight all day. In the old days that was true for me.


Most of us however hit if offline. So, if you don't take the comment so literally, then you realize that Sand Valley allows for offline tee shots to be found and played. Although you will have a hard time scoring from some of them.

I’ve walked around the property numerous times and have found quite a few golf balls lying around the periphery, so the truth of the matter is somewhere between the literal and not so literal.....

Yes, but I bet a number of those are because people hit a second ball and didn't want to look for the first. Happened several times in my group the other day. The caddie was ready to go find it and the player said don't bother. And none of them were lost by any means.

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