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Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2018, 05:53:05 PM »
I'm a huge fan of the "free form" (sort of) design and flow of Old Mac. It is my favorite course at Bandon. I guess that is why I liked Mammoth so much... its open, flowing style really appealed to me. As I said, I've only played it once, so my opinion could change, but I was impressed and had great fun the first time around. At my age I'm more into courses that offer fun as opposed to beating me over the head with "challenge." I wish I'd had the opportunity to go around Mammoth and SV a second time. Hopefully, I will visit again in 2019.

Maybe the powers that be will schedule a Midwest Mashie there!  ;D
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Peter Pallotta

Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2018, 06:01:31 PM »
Bogey - I don't know much about gca either, so I really appreciate you stepping out on a limb and actually assigning numbers/Doak scale to your two top Bandon courses and the two SV courses; your 9s, and the 7 and 6 told so much more about one architecture fan's experience than did dozens of other posts on the dozens of other threads dedicated to those same two destinations combined!
Would you mind too much nipping over to the Sand Hills vs The Old Course thread and providing me a similarly concrete and definite appraisal?
Thanks
P
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 06:03:58 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2018, 10:54:05 AM »
Peter, golf architecture numerology is a silly endeavor but I'll bite anyway.  To cut to the chase, I think Sand Valley and The Old Course are 10's and I'd split 10 rounds 5 each.  Other 10's in my book include Shinnecock Hills (#1), National Golf Links of America, Augusta National, Royal Dornoch and Pebble Beach Golf Links. 

With significant tree cutting, the nine at Rolling Hills CC in Ripley, TN would be another 10 in my book.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Peter Pallotta

Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2018, 11:06:30 AM »
Mike - thanks
Silly it *may* be, but for me -- who has gotten to know a little bit about the tastes of long time posters -- I find the 'hard metric' of a 7 or 8 or 10 much more informative than the conventional/cliched palaver about "fun" and "options" and "another big hit".  The latter tells me almost nothing about the actual architecture-field of play, and very little about which course a given poster thinks is in fact "better". 
Best
P

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2018, 11:07:17 AM »
I wish I'd had the opportunity to go around Mammoth and SV a second time. Hopefully, I will visit again in 2019.


A SV mashie would me amazing!
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 09:03:16 PM by Eric Smith »

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2018, 11:12:21 AM »
Mike - thanks
Silly it *may* be, but for me -- who has gotten to know a little bit about the tastes of long time posters -- I find the 'hard metric' of a 7 or 8 or 10 much more informative than the conventional/cliched palaver about "fun" and "options" and "another big hit".  The latter tells me almost nothing about the actual architecture-field of play, and very little about which course a given poster thinks is in fact "better". 
Best
P
Here's my take on the architecture, Peter - You can trap hook runners All Day Long and Twice on Sundays on all three courses at Sand Valley. Just pick the right line and whack it!

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2018, 12:38:43 PM »
Surely no one is foolish enough to be discouraged by my less than fawning take.  The turf at all 3 courses is fabulous and well suited for my game - nothing rolls like a ball.   Greens putting well, albeit slightly slower at Mammoth.  Conditioning is a 10 in my book. 

Playing The Sandbox in a group of 8 is dang near a once-in-a-lifetime experience worthy of any bucket list.   Middle aged men and women playing barefoot.  Endless "get in the hole" shouts.  Unceasing needling.  I played solo between two groups of 8 and enjoyed watching them.  Also gave me time to hit an abundant array of shots.   

Enjoy your September trip, Eric.  I just can't quite give the game up and will be enjoying a trifecta of Eastward Ho!, Yale and Cape Arundel during that same time-frame. 

Mike


Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2018, 12:52:36 PM »
Surely no one is foolish enough to be discouraged by my less than fawning take.  The turf at all 3 courses is fabulous and well suited for my game - nothing rolls like a ball.   Greens putting well, albeit slightly slower at Mammoth.  Conditioning is a 10 in my book. 

Playing The Sandbox in a group of 8 is dang near a once-in-a-lifetime experience worthy of any bucket list.   Middle aged men and women playing barefoot.  Endless "get in the hole" shouts.  Unceasing needling.  I played solo between two groups of 8 and enjoyed watching them.  Also gave me time to hit an abundant array of shots.   

Enjoy your September trip, Eric.  I just can't quite give the game up and will be enjoying a trifecta of Eastward Ho!, Yale and Cape Arundel during that same time-frame. 

Mike


Boger,


Yeah the sandbox will always be a special place for me as it was my daughter’s first round of golf and she LOVED it.


« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 09:02:08 PM by Eric Smith »

Jordan Standefer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2018, 01:20:16 PM »
It was great fun, Michael!

Many, many words will be written here and elsewhere about the Bandon/Sand Valley comparison and that will be fair.  My first trip to BD was in late 2012 after the resort was already well established.  I will say that Sand Valley reminded me a lot of what I had read in DREAM GOLF by Stephen Goodwin and conversations with John Cowden about the early days of the resort at Bandon.

I will be watching as SV evolves and will definitely be back.

Jake Marvin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2018, 02:56:58 PM »
I enjoyed Sand Valley a lot. Great par threes especially, but the praise is overflowing here already so I'll spare myself the effort.


BUT...


I still think I'd split 10 rounds with Lawsonia 8-2 in favor of the Links.


Maybe it's just me, but I feel like there's a certain line where too much of anything starts to be a bad thing, and SV is toeing that line when it comes to width. Width is great, but it necessitates a focus on angles to provide an advantage to the golfers who find the right part of the fairway. There are too many holes where I feel like I can hit a drive anywhere green and have a simple shot in (1, 4, 6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 18) which shouldn't be the case when everywhere's green. Player-friendliness approaches coddling at some points, which feels a little patronizing in my mind. Whether SV is too friendly or not is a matter of personal taste, and I'd say it stops just short. All I know is this scale stuff has to hit a wall at some point before we're all playing Huxleyian electromagnetic golf.


Or maybe I'm uncommon in enjoying the challenge of overcoming the course rather than being led along by it, although this group strikes as being mostly the same way.


Again, I liked the place, but it's somewhat flawed in my mind.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2018, 04:31:56 PM »
To eliminate the ocean-side bias if such a thing exists, I've eliminated the cliff-side holes at Bandon from this analysis, cheating a little given the backdrop for the 10th at PD.   Throwing out the ocean-sides, here are the holes I think are exceptional and that I really like:

Pacific Dunes Par 4's:  2, 6, 7, 8, 9
Pacific Dunes Par 5's:  3
Pacific Dunes Par 3's:  10, 17
Total:  8

Bandon Trails Par 4's:  4, 11 (I know but I find the pond serene), 15
Bandon Trails Par 5's: 3
Bandon Trails Par 3's:  2, 12, 17
Total:  7

Sand Valley Par 4's:  2, 15
Sand Valley Par 5's:  10
Sand Valley Par 3's:  14 (easily the best hole at the resort)
Total: 4

Mammoth Dunes Par 4's:  10, 14 (though Tim Liddy's version at Trophy Club is its equal)
Mammoth Dunes Par 5's:  None
Mammoth Dunes Par 3's:  14 (a stretch at that but I like the front-right peninsula, the back left stoop and am a sucker for a thumb-print)
Total:  3

I hope to heck I got the hole numbers correct.  I do find PD and BT to be clearly superior to SV and MD. 

Caveat:  Fat boys with high handicaps don't like scaling a long incline at the last hole so I detest Doak's 18th at PD but must begrudgingly acknowledge it's a pretty good golf hole.  The 16th at BT - I'm not so sure. 

Bogey
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 04:37:40 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2018, 04:59:33 PM »
Bogey,


I have to ask... how many times have you played each of these courses?


Whit
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2018, 05:40:56 PM »
The defendant guesses PD and BT 3 times each. SV and MD once.  Fwiw,  I had turtle soup once and thought it was pretty good - let's say a 6 or 7 on a scale of 10, but I didn't see any need to ever order it again, opinions being objective and all.

Now that I think about it, only one time did I see Condredge Holloway complete a 2 point conversion to Larry Seivers on October 26, 1974 in Neyland Stadium to beat Clemson, but I'm pretty sure I liked that too.

Bogey
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 05:45:52 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2018, 06:06:22 PM »
The who’s the better shade of orange debate should be settled on Craig’s Porch!
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 09:04:00 PM by Eric Smith »

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2018, 06:07:05 PM »
Does anyone even offer turtle soup anymore? I had it once at Commander's Palace in New Orleans... a bit salty for my taste... but, maybe that was just their recipe and not a fair representation of turtle soup in general.
It's a shame Clemson and Tenn don't play any more. Those games in the 70's were classics. Love to see them hook up again.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2018, 07:01:24 PM »
Does anyone even offer turtle soup anymore?


Time to move the Dixie Cup north of the border!!



http://www.golftripper.com/snapper-soup-at-pine-valley/


"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2018, 09:33:36 AM »
Thanks for the photo, Mike.  My one and only cup was at LuLu CC with the one-and-only Redanman.  Anybody seen Bill V lately?

I hoped to elicit more push-back on Sand Valley and Mammoth Dunes.  Specifically, I'd like opinions as to which holes at stellar.   It's always conceivable that I didn't "get it."

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

JHoulihan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2018, 08:53:24 PM »
I was lucky enough to plan a recent trip to both Sand Valley and Lawsonia between July 7 and 11th. Many thoughts come to mind -- both positive and negative about each location.

Sand Valley – PROS
ONE. Ability to provide caddies of all ages and abilities (Age 20-60) whom may be locals, or have traveled to other national resorts including Bandon Dunes.
TWO. Advance email warning about temporary greens on SV and discounted greens fees to compensate. ($220 – 50 = $170).
THREE. Walking. It was just nice to see so few if any carts. I did see one group or three (2 sons and their older father) playing up 18 one night but that was the only player cart I saw in 3 days play.
FOUR. Sand - Sand - Sand. Amazing to look at visually, but more importantly feel under foot. The areas within 50 yards of the green surface and the putting surface itself were something I have never experienced before. The way the ball would react when it landed, and the making of/lack of pitch marks was something that was learned and fostered with each hole played.
FIVE. Proshop. May not have been the biggest, but it had options from $10 to $100 and up. Logo options for both courses from great brands not available at most courses including Seamus and Galvin Green.
SIX. Fast and firm conditions leave you with many options from the fairway, and even more from just off the green surfaces.
SEVEN. Fun – Fun – Fun. The short 17 hole Sandbox course is just as fun as it’s childhood memory suggests. Holes play about 65 to 165 yards with ALL holes providing the option to run up or putt up a ball from nearly every teeing ground. The ability to make a 1 or 5 on every hole keeps your mind active until the very last putt is holed.
EIGHT. Keeping a ball in play. Losing a ball is certainly possible, but very limited at both courses. Wide fairways and large greens allow players of all abilities a shot at a par on nearly all 36 holes.
NINE. Bus to take you between common spots. (Clubhouse/Lodging/Mammoth Dunes – Sand Valley Course –Range)
TEN. Space and acerage to build 1 or more courses.
ELEVEN. Mammoth Dunes Hole #6. 260-320 yard Par 4 giving players the option to make a 1 or a 7. Take a look at the pin position before you decide what club to pull. Short left bunker lets you know that driver may or may not be the best play for everyone from the tee. Huge boomerang green shape allows putter, wedge, or your favorite chipping club to approach for birdie. Pictures did NOT do this whole justice as to the width of the green complex and just how far the front right pin is from the run up area short and left and how big a mound sits between the two points.

Sand Valley - CONS
ONE. Temporary greens. For me SV holes 2, 5, and 8 remained closed. I was told that they were to open the original greens "soon" but they would not provide a future date an instead monitored day by day. The local rule was "2 putt maximum" until the original greens were reopened.
TWO. Lodging. For others I was paired with (traveling as a single), not an issue. For me personally, this was a BIG issue. Maybe I am not the courses "target customer", but is not every person who makes a tee time important as far as word of mouth to friends and family. Traveling as a single may not be customary for a destination resort, but $275 (and upwards to 750) for a single king bedroom is not for this traveler. I have not been to Bandon, but understand there are limited options for housing nearby. Nearby (about 15 minute drive away) in Wisconsin Rapids there were many options to stay for at or below $100 nightly. Lodging was currently being built nearby so maybe price will diminish as number of rooms increases, but it seems this is the going rate not only here but at the other Keiser properties coast to coast.
THREE. Generally starting from the #10 tee. Both the starter and my caddy informed me that most groups start this way. I the minority, actually started from the #1 tee and showed my caddy his first ever round holes 1 to 18 in that order. Besides the yardage book and sign logistics, I am unsure why starting from the #10 vs the #18 tee would be common practice.
FOUR. Cost. The normal $220 green fee (and even the $170 discounted rate) was the most I have paid personally to play. I know other places are more (Straits at Kohler) but this will certainly exclude many players purely from a budget standpoint.

Sand Valley - Unsure.
ONE. Food. My food options and cost were more than reasonable. Steaks, fish, and burgers for $40 and less. Online I saw that many more food options have become available recently (seeing a photo of a menu posted but unsure of exactly what social media platform). Problems just became more evident when laying out logistics. Cooking food outside when it is summer and 80-90 degrees and sunny is not ideal, but what about when 60 and rainy? Seating for 30-50 people only? There are 53 holes with 216 plus players golfing at any one time. I know this is only temporary, but not ideal for heavy weekends like July 4 or Labor Day holidays.
TWO. Mammoth Dunes large green complexes. If you are a statistics keeper during your round you may love this particular course. If you are a poor lag putter (with putts of 40-80 feet possible multiple times during a round) you may find scoring here a challenge. There was no practice putting green near the SV course leaving only the MD practice green outside the clubhouse the only option. It is large-ish in size but as you can imagine with any traffic at all, practice putting from 40-80 feet can be almost impossible to prepare yourself for what lies ahead.

Lawsonia Links – PROS
ONE. Cost. $83-88 during the week to ride (and even less to walk).
TWO. Understated pro shop and clubhouse. I just find it a great job of prioritizing what is important, with money being spent ON course conditioning or OFF course on seeing the pro shop from miles away (Ex. Bolingbrook GC outside Chicago).
THREE. Large wooden round pegged bunker rakes. Old school touch just seemed like the perfect touch.

Lawsonia Links – CONS
ONE. Onsite lodging for single. Like SV there are options onsite (single suite, birches house, dawson house, and moreau house double suite) but none are great options for a single, so in a nearby hotel I stayed. Onsite options listed above range from 110-550 and up nightly.
TWO. Steep upslopes between greenside bunkers and green surfaces. It is certainly a much tougher up and down than normal with all but the dramatic 7th green having at least one green side bunker. Getting out of the bunker is just the first part of chasing par. If you are unlucky and leave the ball on the uphill grass wall between the bunker and green surface, leaving your third shot to probably being tougher than the second shot that landed in the greenside bunker.

Lawsonia Links – Unsure
ONE. Geographic location to attract players. Others I talked to said that this area attracts many boaters and travelers to the local lakes. I am just unsure how busy the course stays away from larger metro cities like Milwaukee, Madison, or Chicago.
TWO. Multiple blind tee shots. The first two holes are not the toughest on the course but not being able to see the shots land can play tough with long grass to the right side of fairway on both holes leading to big numbers early.
THREE. Laserlink rangefinder on every cart. No fancy GPS screen just a simple laser gun.

Favorite Holes
Sand Valley = 1,2 ,3/8, 9, 10/16, 17, 18 (Favorite #9)
Mammoth Dunes = 5, 6, 7, 8/10, 11, 12, 13, 14 (Favorite #13/14)
Lawsonia Links = 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11/17, 18 (Favorite #6)

Scores
Sand Valley = 7 “An excellent course worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles”
Mammoth Dunes = 7
Lawsonia Links = 7

Overall
I am very glad that I traveled a few extra nights to play on both sites. It was not a cheap trip, but an overall VERY good experience. I think location makes day trip from Milwaukee/Madison/Chicago possible, but very difficult. This means most will plan to stay nearby and make multiple rounds of play more than possible (60 miles drive apart). Traveling from Phoenix, I doubt I will return for play soon. Especially with possible plans to clearing land for course 4 in the near future (according to staff members I talked to at the resort). A west coast trip, possibly Bandon Dunes will be my next adventure to explore.

Justin

Paul Elam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2018, 08:49:19 PM »
Thanks all and especially Michael and Justin for the highly detailed review of Sand Valley.  I am taking a group of 8 up there in late September, so hopefully the flies, temporary greens, and restaurant issues will all be worked out by then.  It's really helpful to get all this feedback on such a new facility.


We are playing SV and MD twice each, and at least one round on the Sandbox.  Maybe more.  One question for those who have played the Sandbox is how long does it take too get around?  The booking agent said about 2.5 -3 hours.  My only frame of reference is the Cradle at Pinehurst which is only 9 holes, but only takes maybe 45 minutes to play.  I want to allow enough time, but have a hard time believing it would take 3 hours to play a 17 hole Sandbox?


Many thanks...

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2018, 02:57:32 AM »
Thanks all and especially Michael and Justin for the highly detailed review of Sand Valley.  I am taking a group of 8 up there in late September, so hopefully the flies, temporary greens, and restaurant issues will all be worked out by then.  It's really helpful to get all this feedback on such a new facility.


We are playing SV and MD twice each, and at least one round on the Sandbox.  Maybe more.  One question for those who have played the Sandbox is how long does it take too get around?  The booking agent said about 2.5 -3 hours.  My only frame of reference is the Cradle at Pinehurst which is only 9 holes, but only takes maybe 45 minutes to play.  I want to allow enough time, but have a hard time believing it would take 3 hours to play a 17 hole Sandbox?


Many thanks...
I was there the end of July and ALL greens were open, there were no flies I remember, we ate at the starters shed which had some sandwiches that were unique like pulled pork sliders which were reasonably priced IMO.
Didn't play the sandbox, but wanted to with an hour wait.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jim Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2018, 02:45:27 PM »
Justin -


Fantastic review and well done with honest insight.


I was there in late July and all of the greens were open.  Last year there was a putting green and driving range just off the first tee box at Sand Valley.  Unfortunately, both of those were closed on my last visit.  I wish they would keep both open since they are very convenient when playing Sand Valley.  Flies were not an issue at all.  Eating lunch at the shack next to Sand Valley is quick and less expensive.


I agree with Justin that it is disappointing to see the prices for both golf and lodging already at such a high price point, in only year two of the resort.  Bandon is worse in terms of prices and I fear Sand Valley is not far behind.  I get the resorts are a business and the goal of a business is to make a profit.  Demand drives the price.  But, part of me is sad the economics will keep many from experiencing golf in such a beautiful and pure environment.

CJames

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2018, 08:58:13 PM »
Paul Elam: I played the Sandbox twice this past week, and it took our foursome about 90 minutes to play both times.  We are generous with concessions, so that helped.  I had been told to expect the round to take about two hours.  Separately, flies were only a very modest issue and wholly resolved by spraying some Deet 30 bug spray on my white crew socks.  They were a non-issue up at Craig’s Porch. 

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2018, 03:18:58 AM »
Many of Mammoths fairways look like someone spilled a gallon of green paint and let it flow wherever it wanted



This is a fantastic description and is the impression that I had from photographs put perfectly in to words.

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2018, 10:58:52 AM »
Bogey and Ally
Please explain why the green paint analogy is negative. And C&C has built many courses with huge greens. I saw Mammoth as being different than a lot of minimalist design now seemingly being repeated out there
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In praise of Sand Valley!
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2018, 11:12:13 AM »
Bogey and Ally
Please explain why the green paint analogy is negative. And C&C has built many courses with huge greens. I saw Mammoth as being different than a lot of minimalist design now seemingly being repeated out there


Well for me it looks look like an abstract piece of art rather than a natural landscape.


This isn’t necessarily a negative. But it doesn’t look minimalist.

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