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Tim_Weiman

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Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2003, 04:42:46 PM »
Preliminary Results:

Courses assessed: 12
Different Contributors: 8
Percent Responses True: 59
Percent Responses False: 41
Highest Percent True: 100 - Glen Club
Highest Percent False:  91 - Forrest Creek
Tim Weiman

SPDB

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Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2003, 05:54:34 PM »
Some responses, where they can be made.

--  Fazio often builds courses on sites unsuitable for golf, by traditional standards.
I wouldn't say often - he probably takes on a lot of courses that many wouldn't
Ex(support): Victoria/Hudson Nat'l, Shadow Creek, Black Diamond, CO/AZ/CA desert courses.
Ex(against): World Woods, Forest Creek, Pine Valley - Short Course, Wade Hampton, Galloway, Johns Island


--  Fazio often disregards the natural landscape/setting if the natural landscape/setting doesnt suit his design preferences.
This really is a corrolary to question 1. I don't really know how to answer it with examples since if conceded his courses would all look exactly the same. Regardless of how you feel about his design that's not a reasonable judgment to make.
--  Fazio sets out to build golf holes which photograph well.  He aims for an instant visual wow factor, with waterfalls, sharp features and contours, and other forms of visual flash.
this is undeniably true, although not in the gratuitous way that it is phrased. I just thumbed through the book in question and came across a grand total of 2 pictures of waterfalls in some 400 pictures. Like most of the post, there is a little editorial license being taken here. Nevertheless, aesthetics are very important to him, and his courses are very photogenic. Does he design with that intent? my sense is he probably does, but how do I know? I happen to think Pine Valley photographs well.
--  Fazio aims to instantly gratify the golfer.
      If by that you mean that he starts a lot of courses with relatively easy holes, you might be on to something. I don't know of many of his courses that start out with a bear.
--  Fazio courses prefer downhill and avoid uphill par 3s.  
This is weird question. I don't know if Fazio has a corner on this technique. I would do a search in the archives for "uphill" or "blind" par 3s, you'll come across a number of threads, but very few examples. He does like the short drop shot par 3, and I've seen it at: Hartefeld, Johns Island, Jupiter Hills. Pelican Hill. I can't recall any uphill 1 shotters except for a couple at the Short Course. Probably right, but then again I can't really think of many uphill one shot holes I've seen built in the past 20 years.
--  Fazio courses tend to contain misses, especially those on the right side of the golf holes.
I don't think this is true, at least it is not overt. The only one I can think of his Hudson Nat'l and that is simply because it hugs the side of a hill for most of the course.
--  Fazio courses tend to emphasize framing;  that is, they tend to feature vertical containment on each side of the hole to seperate the hole from the others and provide a vertical, visual frame for the golf shot.  The framing exists throughout the golf hole, and not just off the tee.
he has a sub-chapter on the subject. he does it. That being said, he has a very subtle way of doing it. I only recall seeing mounding on one course, Emerald Dunes.

--  Fazio courses tend toward elevated, dramatic tees.
elevated, for the most part yes. Dramatic?
--  Fazio courses tend to minimize hazards which are actually in the line of play, and favor hazards which run parallel to the line of play.  
My main quarrel with his architecture. He can build internal hazards well - Worlds Woods, Galloway. I wish he didn't have an aversion to them.
--  Fazio courses arent much concerned for creating strategic, risk/reward options for the golfer.
marginally true/false. how anybody can so range from the mundane (White Columns) to the really exciting and thoughtful (John's Island) is beyond me.  
--  Fazio courses tend to inform the golfer of the proper avenue of play, rather than confounding the golfer with multiple avenues and multiple choices.
true. although i think for the most part this is a fiction created by arch. junkies, who use it to rationalize views of "strategy" that the majority can't utilize. If you can't place a ball with consistency on one side of a fairway, the whole concept of "option off the tee" is of no use to you, beyond aesthetics (see question #3)  ;D
« Last Edit: October 08, 2003, 05:56:02 PM by SPDB »

cary lichtenstein

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Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2003, 05:56:10 PM »
I've played enough Fazio courses to know that most of what he is saying is TRUE. While he varies his designs, he still is a formula architect. He knows what works, what sells houses, resort rounds, etc. The average guy likes eye candy, wants to keep the ball in the fairway so he can hit the next shot, etc.

While most of the CGA'ers like the old tree lined fairways up north, with landing area not much wider than US Open standards, the golfing public can not play those courses. While most CGA'ers like the stragety of moving the ball from right to left and vis versa, most of the golfing public has never moved a ball either way except by accident.

Could Fazio design a Friar's Head? Probably not because he wouldn't spend the time to let the project mature properly.

But Fazio doesn't pretend to be something he's not. Don't you think its kind of awesome that he produces the quality (eye candy, elevated tee) product given the quantity he produces?



Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

jim_lewis

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Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2003, 09:33:23 PM »
I accept the invitation to address the points made in Dave’s initial post as they relate to Forest Creek, but I must make a few preliminary points. First, I do not accept the label of “Fazio defender”. I have played a lot of his courses mainly because it is my responsibility as a course rater to try to play new courses of note. Fazio has designed many such courses, especially in my part of the country.  What I object to is generalization, period. I don’t like to generalize about architects, artists, musicians, Democrats, conservatives, women, southerners, Yankees, Californians, Catholics, or any other group that is large enough to have some variety.  I prefer to evaluate individual courses. If we stick to specific Fazio courses I have played, I can find something positive to say about almost all of them, and find some fault with every single one. Second, while I have read Fazio’s book, I prefer to judge his courses as I find them rather than by what he has to say. If you judged an architect’s work by what he has to say, you would assume that Mike Strantz’s courses reflect the influence of Dr. Mackenzie, as he has claimed. Would a food critic judge a restaurant based on the chef’s book?  Would a critic judge a book, a play, or a movie based on the statements of the author, playwrite, or director? I doubt it. Call me simple or lazy, but I find it fairly easy to rate individual courses, but very difficult to evaluate architects. So I don’t try.

With regard to Forest Creek and Dave’s list of Fazio’s “general preferences”,  my comments will include the 19 holes of the original (“South”) course and the first 9 of the second (North) course. The remaining 9 holes of the North course will be open by this time next year.

1.False. I have seen several examples of Fazio courses on built difficult sites. Along with Pete Dye, he seems to have a talent for producing some pretty good courses on tough sites, but his best courses that I have seen enjoy excellent sites. Forest Creek, Galloway National, and World Woods Pine Barrens are good  examples.

2.False. The Forest Creek site required very little modification. The course lies pretty naturally on the ground. Sure, some earth was moved, but it is hard to tell.

3.False.  I don’t think FCGC is particularly photogenic unless you like pictures of pine trees and bunkers.  There is only one pond and NO waterfalls. Check the photos that Ran included in his profile of the course.

4. I am not sure what instant gratification means. The first hole of both courses are  relatively short par fours with fairly wide landing areas. The second shot is pretty demanding in both cases as the greens are protected by a front bunker and
the greens run away. Easy tee shot, tough to hit the green.

5. False. Of our 8 par3’s (including the 19th hole) 3 are downhill, 2 are flat and 3 are slightly uphill.  The legitimate criticism is that there is not enough variety in length.

6. True, I guess.  FCGC is carved out of a pine forest and most  are separated from their neighbors. In most cases the underbrush has been cleared so that wayward shots can usually be found and a recovery is possible, if risky. There
are several spots where you can see 1 or 2 neighboring holes but they are separated physically by trees and/or wetlands.

7. False. Most tees are slightly above the fairway level, but only slightly.

8. False. 15 of our 28 holes have hazards that must be carried (not counting greenside bunkers), although several don’t threaten good players. 8 others have fairway
bunkers that encourage and reward flirting. 2 have fairway bunkers that serve no strategic value, but simply should be avoided. Two holes 3rd and 8th on the South course have cross bunkers. You know, those things that Fazio never builds.

9. True and false. There is some but I would like to see more. After you have played the course a few times, you pretty much know how you want to play each hole. Only the wind, the pin placement, or the status of the match will cause me
to change my strategy off the tee. As always, my decision on subsequent shots depends on  where my previous shot came to rest.

10. Same answer as #9.  Depending on the factors mentioned above plus the skill level of the player, most holes have one ideal route.  In my view, many factors dictates the strategy on a given shot. The design of the hole or the architect’s intent is only one, and is usually irrelevant if you don’t hit your tee shot exactly where you wanted to. But that’s the subject of another thread. I think it is true that Tom does not emphasize multiple choices off the tee, at least, not at FCGC.
However, it is often not clear from the tee where the ideal tee shot line is. I usually  need to coach guests who have not played the course before,especially my partners.                    
             
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Forrest Richardson

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Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2003, 09:49:22 PM »
Jim said, "I don’t like to generalize about architects, artists, musicians, Democrats, conservatives, women, southerners, Yankees, Californians, Catholics, or any other group that is large enough to have some variety..."

Oh now, come on, certainly you can generalize about Californians....
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

jim_lewis

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Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2003, 09:57:54 PM »
O.K., Californians maybe. But not California golf courses.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Tim_Weiman

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Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2003, 10:06:18 PM »
Jim Lewis:

Interesting comments. I wonder if "generalizations" are the GCA equivalent of the sound bite.

In case it wasn't clear, I'm not a fan of most of the features Dave summarized from Fazio's book, but haven't actually found most of them present at the two Fazio courses I'm most familiar with.

It might be worth reviewing Tom Doak's analysis of Mackenzie on his own 13 "essentials". If I recall, Tom pointed out instances where Mackenzie didn't follow his own book.
Tim Weiman

paul cowley

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Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2003, 10:15:19 PM »
....after reading this thread till now ,and trying to listen ,its apparent that some on this site have a lillipution desire to denigrate tom fazios designs.......but why?...fazios worst is better than 85% of the new....money envy?ego envy?....just listen to your critisisms....not always classic ,but always enjoyable.....and well done.......critics,get a bigger life beyond this.........
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike_Cirba

Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2003, 10:20:54 PM »
Paul Cowley;

Fazio's courses are a mixed bag, ranging from the exquisite (i.e. World Woods, Galloway) to the mundane and soulless (insert course(s)) here.

Last year, I played a new high end club he designed on some really interesting land and the project cost $40MILLION.  Despite that excess, the course itself was bland, awkwardly routed, and full of contrived features.  Later that afternoon we played a brand-new nearby muni and found it to be a better course.

What is consistent among Fazio's work is large budgets and visual flair.  He also tends to get a lot of high profile work (more power to him) and I think it's fair to argue that on any number of his courses, once played a few times, there's not a lot of "there" there.  There's a certain uni-dimensionality to too much of his work that could lead to a very fair criticism that many of his courses are high on style but short on substance.

Throw in his very questionable work at "restoration" on a number of classic courses, and I think it's not about "getting a life"...it's about honest and critical and valuable architectural criticism.  

Why else are we here?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2003, 10:22:50 PM by Mike_Cirba »

Tim_Weiman

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Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2003, 10:47:17 PM »
Paul Cowley:

My friend Tommy Naccarato - a notorious Fazio basher - can tell you that on more than one occasion I've cautioned him against generalized comments about Fazio.

But, honestly, your comments sound like a yearning for the days when golf architecture criticism didn't exist, perhaps the world before The Confidential Guide and Golfclubatlas itself.

Is golf architecture an art form that would be served by the absence of serious criticism? I think not.
Tim Weiman

paul cowley

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Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2003, 11:02:55 PM »
...y'all..its the bashing i quess i react to.....when you stand back , and look at the quality of the golf experience he has created ,in comparison to the whole [forget budgets],this is , and has been ,a really good body of work[i'd say great,but ,he ,they,aren't dead yet]................
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tim_Weiman

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Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2003, 11:19:11 PM »
Paul:

How do you differentiate between "bashing" and honest golf architecture criticism?
Tim Weiman

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2003, 11:45:09 PM »
Jim,
Thanks for the straight and direct answers. As usual, your spot on your likes and dislikes, and I totally respect that. I do hope to one day see Forest Creek, and see some really good Fazio, like I feel Shady Canyon is the same. It is in fact the best Fazio I have seen to date.

But I do have to ask........

"Would a food critic judge a restaurant based on the chef’s book?"

If a food critic went into a really trendy, much talked about restaurant and asked for this head chef's specialty--Rice Carolina, which tastes like the best lobster with shreaded truffles; but was actually dog shit served open face on rye bread and it tasted good, does that mean it really is good to eat? ? ? ?

 ;D

DMoriarty

Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2003, 04:21:46 AM »
Well this isnt exactly what I anticipated for this thread but interesting nonetheless.

David W.  
Not sure why I chose the word "Damning" except that it is attention getting and I thought it might help stir the conversation.  

Plus, one of the things I was getting at here is that the list could be mistaken for criticism, instead of Mr. Fazio's preferences.  For example, Tommy N is often accused of unfairly criticizing Mr. Fazio through the use of a litany of generalizations.  Yet many of Tommy's generalizations appear to be very similar to Mr. Fazio's "preferences."   Anyone who agrees with Tommy N. might be called a Damning critic, dont you think?

Another way to look at it.  It seems that much of the defense of Mr. Fazio on this site is geared toward discrediting Mr. Fazio's preferences.   I was jesting that the preferences must be damning otherwise his supporters would not try to discredit them.
________________

Does anyone think that I have misrepresented Mr. Fazio's views on my list?  After all, I created during a rather thin read and spun it so as try to present it as actual criticism . . .   It could be wrong. . .

Mr. Cowley,

I am not seeing much criticism on this thread thus far . . . Perhaps you can point in out to me.  

Is it criticism when people evaluating Fazio designs agree with Mr. Fazio ("True") on some or most points?  Or is it criticism when they disagree?  Or is it something else all together?  

I would appreciate your (or anyone else's) response because I have been trying to figure out what upsets so many whenever Mr. Fazio's work comes up.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2003, 04:25:34 AM by DMoriarty »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2003, 09:48:03 AM »
...ok guys ,so i drank a little wine last night ,it happens.....
i guess its not so much that tom fazio is building courses that realize his stated goals ,its more like some here just disagree with his goals....hence the negative critique at times...
  no ,i would't change a thing about the way this forum operates............carry on while i take two advil.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

DMoriarty

Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2003, 02:40:20 PM »
...ok guys ,so i drank a little wine last night ,it happens.....
i guess its not so much that tom fazio is building courses that realize his stated goals ,its more like some here just disagree with his goals....hence the negative critique at times...
  no ,i would't change a thing about the way this forum operates............carry on while i take two advil.

paul cowley . . . no need to apologize.  I am disappointed you are bowing out as I think your previous posts are fairly indicative of the type of reaction anti-Fazio posts evoke.

Perhaps if you can recall, you might tell me what it was that annoyed you, even if it was in part becaue of too much alcohol?

To Anyone Out There:

Can someone please explain to me how those who dislike Mr. Fazio have generally misrepresented him on this site?

Calling JakaB . . . Calling Patrick . . . Calling Anyone . . .  

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2003, 05:08:22 PM »
Tim happy to go through the whole exercise.  I'll highlite the Members Club at Aldarra in Seattle snce I doubt a lot of you have seen the golf course.

#1 Somewhat true;The site runs east and West with a severe elevation change early in the back side.  
#2 False; In the case of Aldara there is some excellent use of ravines etc.  to add interest.
#3 True; Framing, elevation and old farmbuildings are used extensively to "paint a picture".
#4 True; At least visually
#5 False; Three of the par 3's are slightly uphill and the fourth is RADICALLY  downhill
#6 More true than false; Some holes offer misses to left
#7 True;  See # 3
#8 True; Although the property does not lend itself to extreme elevation changes #1,#8, #12,#13  all combine an artistic flair best seenfrom the elevated teeing area
#9 True;  Although I will say that Aldarra makes very good use of some crossing hazards
#10, #11  This is a straight forward golf course.  Wandering from the clear line of play is neither indicated nor wise.  A very good player would more than likely play this course along the same line most of the time.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2003, 05:21:13 PM »
Updated Results

Courses assessed: 15
Different Contributors: 11
Percent Responses True: 62
Percent Responses False: 38
Highest Percent True: 100 - Glen Club
Highest Percent False:  91 - Forrest Creek

Note: didn’t include anything from SPDB
Tim Weiman

Mike_Cirba

Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2003, 10:50:24 PM »
Paul Cowley;

Consistent with the design methodologies of Mackenzie, Tillinghast, and most of the golden agers, might I suggest that you take that flask out in the field with you?  ;)  

Also, if it wasn't for passionate, alcohol-fueled posts, I doubt there would be much worth reading here.  ;D

Personally, I think it's great that you challenged us.  Good, incisive questioning from those "in the field" help us all to think and better refine our opinions and arguments.  Thank you!  

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2003, 06:56:24 AM »
....trust me mike ,without the flask , my system of checks and balances in the design world would cease to work..its a gear oil thing.........when some of our new stuff [the patriot]opens later this year ,well,and i think you would agree,that it's hardly a teetotalers effort.....many nights spent atop the mounds..........cheers,paul


oh, and dmoriaty, my earlier post was not meant as an apology , but more as an explanation for my tone ,as i was begining to sound like the people i was critisising [ranters]

 ;)   i rarely call people lilliputians and the fazio group hardly needs me to defend thier successes
« Last Edit: October 10, 2003, 07:03:29 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Shaper

Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2003, 12:46:31 PM »
Seems like the hole world agrees....

A_Clay_Man

Re:The Most Damning Critic of Tom Fazio is . . . Mr. Fazio himself?
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2003, 10:56:43 PM »
What's different about bashing someone for charging too much or creating an inflated standard in an industry ( sounds like jealousy)and what most of what I read that others may consider bashing, is a disagreement about a fundamental principles in "the game" and what makes it more than just "down the middle".

Now if we have somewhat successfully quantified the traits that comprise TF's work, the question is why is he altering courses whos original designers principles were diametrically opposed to his apparent own? i.e. Robert Tyre Jones, Allistar MacKenzie, George Thomas