Mind games with "great" par 4s

[George Pazin]

Eric Pevoto made a really interesting point on the "Uni-Tee" thread that prompted some interesting responses. He said that George Thomas felt the proper use of multiple tees was to allow members to play "different" holes during their many plays of a course. Eric then said it would be cool to play a hole that was great at both 300 & 450 yards.

I got to thinking about this and came up with the following statement, which another poster (one of our wisest, IMO)suggested to me would make a good thread:

"Just off the top of my head, I'd say most great short par 4s would still be great if you threw a back tee on 150 yards back - because most great short par 4s are great because of the green complex.

I wonder how many great long par 4s would be great if you chopped 150 yards."

Obviously courses like Bethpage Black would be nothing if you took out the length.

JUST KIDDING - I know BB's defenders are the most passionate onboard & I figured I could get a quick & fiery response from them.

What do you guys think?

[Norbert P]

 First one that came to my mind was Foxy (14th) at Dornoch.
 It's a three shot hole for me anyway so, YES! I think it would still be great.
 
 Others, 17th @ TOC, St. Andrews.
             7th at Pacific Dunes
             1st (Battery) at Machrihanish (Green moved up, not tee)
          The Par 3 17th at Apache Stronghold would still be cool with 150 yards lopped off.
            17th at Prestwick
            16th at North Berwick (The Biarritzy-greened one)

 Dang, I just may carry around my own tee markers and stake some claims.  
 
             
             

[George Pazin]

Good examples, as well as some interesting thoughts from Shivas. Looking forward to more examples. Feel free to add short par 4s that would make great long par 4s as well.

Would shortening some butt puckering par 4s on a course like Medinah make it more fun? Would it make most golfers take it less seriously?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Are we insisting that the 300-yard tee is on the same line as the 450-yard tee, or can we move the tee out to the side?  I am not thinking of a specific example, but The 2nd at Royal Troon is played from a tee to the right of the 1st green in summer, and from a tee well to the left the 1st green in winter, making it a totally different hole.

[George Pazin]

No rules, just free form thinking.

Sorry if that leaves anyone out.

[Eric Pevoto]

Haven't come up with a short to long conversion yet.  Good short par 4's are hard to come by.  The 3rd at Inniscrone may be one that would work, though.

As for 450 to 300, how about a hole like the 13th at Pine Valley?  Trying to slot the drive through the neck would certainly be interesting!

[A_Clay_Man]

The current finisher at Pinon hIlls is a great par 4. Teeing off the elevated tee, the right bunker complex is good for reference on where the perfect drive should be attempted. But, from the forward tees, which are down the hill,  the bunker complex's hieght is much more ominous than the view from above. To me the hole is strong, just not necessarily a great (better) finisher than the current ninth was.

[Phil_the_Author]

George,

Since no one has spoken of BB let me be the first.

The fourth hole can play as a short par five of 460 yards from the lower front tee, to 535 yards from the top back tee. For even the most accomplished of amateurs, this change will present different challenges and strategies. The hole will still play as a world-class par five at any of the distances.

The seventh hole is monstrously difficult as a 595 yard par five from the true back championship tees. As a 510 yard par five from the front, it is still all that most can deal with, as the temptation to play down the right side thinking one can hit it past the trees will usually put one in the thick rough.

The front tee on ten allows most good players to have a chance at this hole. It actually causes many to play right into the rough as it points directly towards it. It takes an intelligent player to shoot left, and still the second shot to the green is difficult when the pin is right and along the bunker. Back left though, I believe is the tougher pin position when played from the front tees, as many a shot is not held and rolls over the green into heavy rough. As even the pro's had a difficult time from the back tee, which are over 100 yards behind the front tee, this may be the ultimate "adjustable" par four. That is until you come to number 12.

12. This may be the ultimate great "adjustable" par four in the world. The front tee has the hole playing about 400 yards. The carry over the cross bunker is still difficult for many, and no matter where your drive ends up, the shot into the green is still going to have to be very well struck to place your ball on the same level as the pin, especially if it is front left. Playing from the back, the hole can be stretched to as much as 520 yards in length. This hole is also among the greats in the world.

15. Oh wait, 15. Now THIS is truly the greatest "adjustable" par four in the world. From the front tee, it measures as the longest 410 yard par four with the green up the hill on the side of the cliff. The back tees, measuring out at almost 490 yards were too much for even the best in the world to deal with. The USGA wouldn't even consider playing from there during the Open. This hole had the players calling it the "most difficult par four in the world" during the Open. Davis Love III even said that the contours of this green were more difficult than any at ANGC! This is among the best holes in the world (IMHO).

[Norbert P]

 I assume BB = Bethpage Black.  

 The 5th at Bandon Dunes would be treacherous if 150 yards or so were lopped off the front of it.  I can then imagine pitching 50 yards off the tee and then using a mid-iron on the approach.  Or maybe putting down the alley, since it's concave, and then pitching to green.  

  (Personally, I'm not exactly taking off EXACTLY 150 yards in my mind with any of my choices, just a big lump to an interesting starting point to make it a short hole and still be a demanding par. ((Not that par is important.)))

 11th there would be cool still if shorter.  Usually against the wind (from north), too.