Criticism of Carnoustie

[Thomas Dai]

A few years ago I played Car-nicely in the company of a 36 hcp lady from the US. It was her first ever experience of links golf. She loved it because almost all the bunkers and other trouble was visible and because she could play the ground game with very few forced carries more than 20 ft in width.
Around the same time I played it in the company of a very low single hcp man. Long hitter but alas no brain. He lost countless balls (deservedly so) and hated the place.
Just a couple of tales from the past.
As to the colour of the greens, walking on them and feeling the surface under your feet is usually a pretty good test. In the future I suspect sub-surface moisture readings will be given out.
Not keen on watered approaches on links courses though, although the comments above are noted. Limits one of the great skills of links golf.....knowing where to pitch a ball short of a green to allow for appropriate run-out and then landing it accordingly.

atb

[George Pazin]

Interesting comments on an interesting course. I heard it here, and on TV: If the greens were undulating, it would be near impossible to play(paraphrasing). But, that’s in direct conflict of what we’ve been told, and subsequently discussed on this very forum. Haven’t we all decided the best way to perplex the better golfer is by providing greens with internal contours and funky reads? Carnoustie has it backwards....length, really tough bunkering (positioning and depth/ difficulty to extricate onesself), dry fairways, softer, flat greens.....


While I don’t understand it all, I sure did appreciate the tournament as it unfolded on a wonderful golf course.

Did you really think the greens looked flat? Every time they showed a ground level view, I was mightily impressed by the ground contours, both fairways and greens. Sure didn't look flat to me...

[Kalen Braley]

Niall,


I'm not trying to single out Carnoustie, there's a whole host of US Open courses that appear to be uninteresting brutes as well.


Torrey Pines
Congressional
Winged Foot
Southern Hills
Medinah 3.


Just seems like if I got two weeks to do a trip over there, I probably ain't lining up to pay a triple digit green fee to get massacred...

[Joe Hancock]

Interesting comments on an interesting course. I heard it here, and on TV: If the greens were undulating, it would be near impossible to play(paraphrasing). But, that’s in direct conflict of what we’ve been told, and subsequently discussed on this very forum. Haven’t we all decided the best way to perplex the better golfer is by providing greens with internal contours and funky reads? Carnoustie has it backwards....length, really tough bunkering (positioning and depth/ difficulty to extricate onesself), dry fairways, softer, flat greens.....


While I don’t understand it all, I sure did appreciate the tournament as it unfolded on a wonderful golf course.

Did you really think the greens looked flat? Every time they showed a ground level view, I was mightily impressed by the ground contours, both fairways and greens. Sure didn't look flat to me...

George,


I saw some contours within the greens, but not many. I am basing my comments strictly on the commentary I’ve heard. Never been there.

[Carl Rogers]

..... and observing the putts over 2 days.  The greens had enough subtle breaks to defend themselves, but not over the top.  the players thought they had a chance to make putts. I rather liked them.

[Sean_A]

Interesting comments on an interesting course. I heard it here, and on TV: If the greens were undulating, it would be near impossible to play(paraphrasing). But, that’s in direct conflict of what we’ve been told, and subsequently discussed on this very forum. Haven’t we all decided the best way to perplex the better golfer is by providing greens with internal contours and funky reads? Carnoustie has it backwards....length, really tough bunkering (positioning and depth/ difficulty to extricate onesself), dry fairways, softer, flat greens.....


While I don’t understand it all, I sure did appreciate the tournament as it unfolded on a wonderful golf course.

Did you really think the greens looked flat? Every time they showed a ground level view, I was mightily impressed by the ground contours, both fairways and greens. Sure didn't look flat to me...

George

I would say Carnoustie's greens are flatish with some generally mild contour.  The course certainly lacks a few a killer greens which all links need. Bottom line...the greens could be more interesting, but I wouldn't say they are Woodhall Spa dull. 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

A few years ago I played Car-nicely in the company of a 36 hcp lady from the US. It was her first ever experience of links golf. She loved it because almost all the bunkers and other trouble was visible and because she could play the ground game with very few forced carries more than 20 ft in width.
Around the same time I played it in the company of a very low single hcp man. Long hitter but alas no brain. He lost countless balls (deservedly so) and hated the place.
Just a couple of tales from the past.
As to the colour of the greens, walking on them and feeling the surface under your feet is usually a pretty good test. In the future I suspect sub-surface moisture readings will be given out.
Not keen on watered approaches on links courses though, although the comments above are noted. Limits one of the great skills of links golf.....knowing where to pitch a ball short of a green to allow for appropriate run-out and then landing it accordingly.

atb

Indeed the above little anecdote gives me another opportunity to remind that the ground game is *most* alive at our flatter links courses with far more subtle contour.


And that it is these courses that often reward the repeated plays.

[Niall C]

Niall,


I'm not trying to single out Carnoustie, there's a whole host of US Open courses that appear to be uninteresting brutes as well.


Torrey Pines
Congressional
Winged Foot
Southern Hills
Medinah 3.


Just seems like if I got two weeks to do a trip over there, I probably ain't lining up to pay a triple digit green fee to get massacred...

Kalen

I understand what you're saying. I'd only add that you probably will stay have to pay a triple digit green fee anyway unfortunately. That's just the way things are going.

Niall

[Niall C]

Ally

Totally agree, hence my dislike of plateau greens 

Niall

[Mark_Fine]

If Carnoustie's greens were full of buried elephants, you would have seen some of the pro's shooting in the 90's.  So where would that leave the rest of us    I have only played the course a handful of times and every round in a 3-4 club wind but regardless it is great test of golf.  It is not my favorite links by a long shot (doesn't have the character of some of my favorites), but it is well worth playing.  Honestly I think #17 is a bit goofy (really only one option off the tee which I really don't care for on a long par four) but otherwise it has some excellent golf holes.  The greens have enough movement to make putting challenging especially in heavy wind which is the norm at Carnoustie. 

[Niall C]

Mark

I don’t know that Carnoustie is prone to heavier winds than any other links, I suspect it is just variable as you expect on the coast. Back when I played a couple of times a year with a pal who was a member, I recall a bit of advice he gave me. It was if a putt looks straight, hit it straight. Don’t bother looking for borrows. I sank quite a few sizeable putts that way.

Of course when I played they were running at the regular every day speed. At championship speed there would be a lot more movement.

Niall   

[Thomas Dai]

Some reflections - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PFjbGmae4Zg
Atb

[Joe Schackman]

Alan Shipnuck opines that the R&A is falling out of love with Carnoustie and therefore it might be coming of the rota in expense of Portrush.

Any other news on that front? I hadn't heard much on that before reading this:

http://www.golf.com/knockdown/2018/07/24/askalan-british-open-carnoustie

[Kalen Braley]

Niall,


I'm not trying to single out Carnoustie, there's a whole host of US Open courses that appear to be uninteresting brutes as well.


Torrey Pines
Congressional
Winged Foot
Southern Hills
Medinah 3.


Just seems like if I got two weeks to do a trip over there, I probably ain't lining up to pay a triple digit green fee to get massacred...

Kalen

I understand what you're saying. I'd only add that you probably will stay have to pay a triple digit green fee anyway unfortunately. That's just the way things are going.

Niall

Niall,


I get that most green fees over there will be triple digits for a yank....I'm only saying I wouldn't pay that to get beat up.  May as well play something fun like TOC or North Berwick or some other quirky gal! 

[Niall C]

Joe

There may be an element of truth although I haven't heard any chat. What I would say, there is always chat about gate revenue when the Open goes to Carnoustie and Turnberry but inevitably they produce some terrific drama and it seems to go away. In any case if it went on attendance the Open we be played down south every year.

As also noted on other threads, they are limiting numbers next year at Portrush so seems strange they would ditch Carnoustie because of attendances to go somewhere they were going to limit the attendances. Of course they might be setting the limit at 200,000 !

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Niall, regards Portrush (I could equally answer this on the other thread), they are indeed setting a high limit for Portrush (can’t recall number but somewhere over 150,000). It is the max number they think the course infrastructure can handle. They just believe Portrush will be the biggest selling Open ever I guess...


Be a crying shame if Carnoustie was to again fall out of favour - it is certainly one of the great venues.

[Niall C]

Ally

Carnoustie got 180,000 last week and I think the courses down south have had up to 230,000 so imagine that they would be looking for c.180K to 200K people ? What limits the numbers I wonder ? Once you have the requisite space for the tented village/media tent/practice areas etc then what limits the numbers on the course if anything ? I mean TOC manages and I can't imagine RP is worse than there ?

As an aside, I don't think anyone has mentioned it but Carnoustie is possibly the best Scottish course for spectating and getting around.

Niall

[Ryan Coles]

Niall


When I was at Portrush they were finishing building tunnels etc on the Course. I believe it is movement around the course and vantage points that concern them rather than the nearby paraphernalia in the tented village etc.


Agree that St Andrews is probably the worst to view, but gets the biggest numbers.

[Marty Bonnar]

For me, the logistical nightmare of Scottish Public Transportation is what puts me off attending Opens when they’re up here.
Given I live about 20 miles from St A, 30 from Carnoustie and Muirfield and about 50 from Troon and Trumpberry, I should be ashamed. However, the thought of an hour standing squished on a train with the great unwashed, along with what are rapidly becoming unaffordable ticket prices fills me with dread.
On a political note, I also despise the fact that live play is only available on PPV Telly. Shame on the R£A!
F.

[Kalen Braley]

For me, the logistical nightmare of Scottish Public Transportation is what puts me off attending Opens when they’re up here.
Given I live about 20 miles from St A, 30 from Carnoustie and Muirfield and about 50 from Troon and Trumpberry, I should be ashamed. However, the thought of an hour standing squished on a train with the great unwashed, along with what are rapidly becoming unaffordable ticket prices fills me with dread.
On a political note, I also despise the fact that live play is only available on PPV Telly. Shame on the R£A!
F.

Marty,


Big golf tournaments are a nightmare everywhere I think.  Just the nature of the beast for holding an event once every ten years or so.  Agreed on PPV, the big events here in the states wouldn't dream of doing this cause they'd lose far too much on advertising dollars with all the commercials.


P.S.  I attended an ABBA tribute concert in Park City a few weeks back at an outdoor ampitheatre, who knew they had such a fan base?  We had to park a mile away and it took an hour just to get out!! 

[Tony_Muldoon]

I hope to be there next year.  Have been told preactice days are better for viewing (and cheaper) so  Wednesday and Thursday.  Arrive by car early and after 8 hours or so retreat to a pub near our base.

[David_Tepper]

"P.S.  I attended an ABBA tribute concert in Park City a few weeks back at an outdoor ampitheatre, who knew they had such a fan base?"

Kalen B. -

Are you kidding? ABBA are HUGE!

DT

[Ally Mcintosh]

I camped for5 days with mates at St Andrews Open of 1990, attended the ‘91 Scottish Open at Gleneagles for a day and then the 2006 Ryder Cup in hospitality.


Generally, I find attending golf tournaments a nightmare, hence I haven’t been back.


Agree with Marty on PPV debacle

[Mike Schott]

I camped for5 days with mates at St Andrews Open of 1990, attended the ‘91 Scottish Open at Gleneagles for a day and then the 2006 Ryder Cup in hospitality.


Generally, I find attending golf tournaments a nightmare, hence I haven’t been back.


Agree with Marty on PPV debacle

I've been to a number of tournaments at Oakland Hills including the 2004 Ryder Cup. Professional tournaments are definitely not relaxing to attend unless to want to camp out at one particular vantage point all day. I have been to 2 US Amateurs at OHCC and the atmosphere is much nicer. Fewer folks and you can walk on the fairways.

[Doug Wright]

Carnoustie was the first course I ever played in GB&I, in March 1990 following a very long drive from Gatwick the previous day. Not a “gentle handshake” introduction to golf in Scotland! However, I recall that, although challenging in a 15-20 MPH wind, the course was quite playable and a great first-time experience with the caddies there. Looking on this weekend, I was stuck by how strategic the burn is. I’d forgotten it comes into play on holes other than 17-18, including holes like #6. A really good routing too with holes moving in all directions not just out and back. Tough but fair. I’d play it again anytime, despite my declining skills.