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V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Short par fives are testing—of the short game!
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2018, 07:14:45 PM »
...
I'm not fully down with the tenets of MMs original post intentions regarding "Short Par 5s," but I understand his point, that the short game (including putting) reveals that "extra-quality" in a player on a given day, round, era, and is something to consider in course design theory and application.


cheers   vk

I would suggest that Tom Doak's concept for the Olympic course considers the "extra-quality" of certain players short games. Since the land had few if any features to use in a minimalist design, then the placement of tees and greens was at the designers choosing. He proposed a set of holes with an equal gradation in length between the holes when sorted shortest to longest. Presumably this would get the most even distribution amongst all golfers of holes where they have an opportunity to shine in the short game.

When you start discussing whether it should be a par 4 or par 5, I have to wonder "par 4 for who?" and "par 5 for who?".


Thats very reasonable...
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Short par fives are testing—of the short game!
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2018, 07:19:33 PM »

Either I don't understand what you mean, or you need to get out more. There is no way you can divide golfers into handicap ranges and expect any kind of consistency in talent in any one of those ranges.


Save the cheek... I didn't invite it and your button-pressing has long been tiresome...As for the fact of that sarcastic preamble, I'll state that I have some 4000 rounds and 37 years under my belt, serving, observing and playing the game for every conceivable type of golfer under every competitive and recreational mode of play devised... from US Open sectionals to the Lions and Lambs 9-holers. I've been out plenty, numbnuts


For those besides GB, who desire an honest clarification I intended a "rough, subjective" guide corresponding to the scoring of those groups...


Pros (+5/6) - to 2s break course par, but don't always...
3- 9  sometimes threaten par, often break 80, but don't always...
10-18 are pleased when the break 80 and feel rotten when they go over 90.
18+ are often defined by breaking 90.


My witness reveals that within those very rough subjective groups, the players in the group end up with the same degree of miss, and what segregates them within their group is how proficient and versatile their short game is.


I'm not fully down with the tenets of MMs original post intentions regarding "Short Par 5s," but I understand his point, that the short game (including putting) reveals that "extra-quality" in a player on a given day, round, era, and is something to consider in course design theory and application.


cheers   vk

I'm sorry if I sound cheeky to you. If I were to say the same thing to you in person, I'm pretty sure you would find no offense to it as I believe the context of a good natured discussion would override the perception of cheekiness.

I continually fail to temper my posts in the manner necessary to account for the lack of a person to person meeting where more comes in to play. With some people I just want to be blunt, but that would not be the case with you.

But, forgive me if I say that I find your statements on this matter to be contrary to mathematics, statistics, and logic.
You are assigning arbitrary division points to the gradation scale of the handicap system that segregates players into groups that would not correspond to real life as there is a great diverse set of skills that go into determining the numbers in the handicap system. As was seen on another thread, given the Steady Eddys and Wild Willys of the handicap system, you seem to me to be ignoring at a minimum of 20% of all golfers in your "rough subjective" analysis.

My point about Variance seems to be something that they though about, but never got around to dealing with:
Quote
8. Future Research: The Player Variability Problem[/size]The HRT has shown that 80% of all bogey golfers fit the model within one stroke. However, two distinct types of golfers fall outside of these limits. These types have been labeled "Steady Eddy" and "Wild Willy." Steady Eddy represents 12% of all golfers and he is a very straight, but short ball striker who has an outstanding short game. When taken from a short course to a long course, his score increase8 greater than the model would show, thus he is under-handicapped at a high Slope course. Conversely, Wild Willy is a long-hitter, but is inaccurate. Representing 8% of bogey golfers, this type can be over- handicapped on a long open course, but under-handicapped on any very tight and punitive course.


Furthermore, it seems to me that simply the vast dispersion of age and physical abilities of golfers would render your arbitrary assignment of partitions to the handicap system somewhat meaningless.

Finally, as I posted earlier, Dr. Brodie has shown that the "strokes gained" statistic he originated shows more strokes are lost in the long game than in the short game by high handicappers.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Short par fives are testing—of the short game!
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2018, 07:31:45 PM »

Either I don't understand what you mean, or you need to get out more. There is no way you can divide golfers into handicap ranges and expect any kind of consistency in talent in any one of those ranges.


Save the cheek... I didn't invite it and your button-pressing has long been tiresome...As for the fact of that sarcastic preamble, I'll state that I have some 4000 rounds and 37 years under my belt, serving, observing and playing the game for every conceivable type of golfer under every competitive and recreational mode of play devised... from US Open sectionals to the Lions and Lambs 9-holers. I've been out plenty, numbnuts


For those besides GB, who desire an honest clarification I intended a "rough, subjective" guide corresponding to the scoring of those groups...


Pros (+5/6) - to 2s break course par, but don't always...
3- 9  sometimes threaten par, often break 80, but don't always...
10-18 are pleased when the break 80 and feel rotten when they go over 90.
18+ are often defined by breaking 90.


My witness reveals that within those very rough subjective groups, the players in the group end up with the same degree of miss, and what segregates them within their group is how proficient and versatile their short game is.


I'm not fully down with the tenets of MMs original post intentions regarding "Short Par 5s," but I understand his point, that the short game (including putting) reveals that "extra-quality" in a player on a given day, round, era, and is something to consider in course design theory and application.


cheers   vk

I'm sorry if I sound cheeky to you. If I were to say the same thing to you in person, I'm pretty sure you would find no offense to it as I believe the context of a good natured discussion would override the perception of cheekiness.

I continually fail to temper my posts in the manner necessary to account for the lack of a person to person meeting where more comes in to play. With some people I just want to be blunt, but that would not be the case with you.

But, forgive me if I say that I find your statements on this matter to be contrary to mathematics, statistics, and logic.
You are assigning arbitrary division points to the gradation scale of the handicap system that segregates players into groups that would not correspond to real life as there is a great diverse set of skills that go into determining the numbers in the handicap system. As was seen on another thread, given the Steady Eddys and Wild Willys of the handicap system, you seem to me to be ignoring at a minimum of 20% of all golfers in your "rough subjective" analysis.

My point about Variance seems to be something that they though about, but never got around to dealing with:
Quote
8. Future Research: The Player Variability ProblemThe HRT has shown that 80% of all bogey golfers fit the model within one stroke. However, two distinct types of golfers fall outside of these limits. These types have been labeled "Steady Eddy" and "Wild Willy." Steady Eddy represents 12% of all golfers and he is a very straight, but short ball striker who has an outstanding short game. When taken from a short course to a long course, his score increase8 greater than the model would show, thus he is under-handicapped at a high Slope course. Conversely, Wild Willy is a long-hitter, but is inaccurate. Representing 8% of bogey golfers, this type can be over- handicapped on a long open course, but under-handicapped on any very tight and punitive course.


Furthermore, it seems to me that simply the vast dispersion of age and physical abilities of golfers would render your arbitrary assignment of partitions to the handicap system somewhat meaningless.

Finally, as I posted earlier, Dr. Brodie has shown that the "strokes gained" statistic he originated shows more strokes are lost in the long game than in the short game by high handicappers.

Understood on all GB and for what its worth to the discussion, I fully admit the rough eyeball, non-empirical nature of my contribution which is borne of extensive experience... and more clarification I was talking about skill dispersions within those rough groups, not between a pro and a 10 or an 18+...

***There's a sandbagger/hustler 16 HCP I know (whom I love despite these flaws and his personal friendship with Trump) and when he pulls off a finessed lob or hybrid from the second cut or a spinning bunker shot with bite... he forever says under his breath to me "You don't know many 16s with that shot do you?"

cheers  vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Short par fives are testing—of the short game!
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2018, 09:49:50 PM »
My witness reveals that within those very rough subjective groups, the players in the group end up with the same degree of miss, and what segregates them within their group is how proficient and versatile their short game is.
That's not how it is. I appreciate that you're arguing against the only person on my Ignore list, but… he's right on this one. Higher handicappers are more "separated" by their full swings (drives, approach shots) than by their short game and/or putting. The latter two have the less "separation."

However KB, (as Hell looks for anti-freeze ;)  ) you and EB are considering this in a vacuum (as to some comparable measurement of miss) when there IS a finite, real goal here...holing out (or to answer EB's post, coming to rest an inch from the hole)...I don't doubt that I'm much closer to a tour pro 30 feet from the cup than I am from 200 yards, but back at 200 yards there's a lot more than can happen in the space of 200 yards towards the fundamental challenge of holing out at the lowest number...I doubt you're going to lose a ball or incur a penalty from 30 feet (10 yards), but as you put an average golfer and a professional 30 feet from the hole (on greens, in bunkers, in rough) and the pros get down in an average of 1.7, 1.6,  strokes and the average man gets his 2.3s, 2.4s from 30 feet...the point MM poses and I partially endorse is cast in better relief.

Those stats aren't accurate.

PGA Tour players average 2.0 putts from 33'. From 8', they average 1.5 putts. You have them averaging 1.6 from 30' - that's just not close.

Furthermore, again, the average player doesn't average 2.4 from 30'. They likewise average about 2.1. Depending on who you consider "average."

From 200 yards… a PGA Tour pro averages 3.19 strokes or so (from the fairway). An average golfer likely averages over 4.0. More separation.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.