Westward Ho! RND proposed course changes

[Ally Mcintosh]

Doonbeg did lose holes.


North West in Buncrana has lost 100m of coastline over the years, eradicating about half the holes. The remaining original holes are fantastic so I would have loved to see an early version of the course.


Quite a few courses have lost holes over time. On the flip side, clubs like Portmarnock actually gained ground, in their case leading to the construction of a 4th nine in 1990 which were abandoned before they were finished when they were damaged by the big storm.


Ally

[Ben Stephens]

Aberdovey 12th was badly hit by a storm a while ago - not sure if they have rebuilt it or relocated it.


Brancaster will be affected when sea levels rise as it is low lying and the access to it will be very difficult.


Rye has gained a lot of ground with the Jubilee course area - the club will own the newly formed land as it grows.

[John Mayhugh]

What an idiotic redesign approach.
Essentially, ruin the 9th simply because they decided to make the 7th a par 5. From their proposal:
This hole could possibly remain a short par five which would suit the green, but the 7th becomes a par five, so on balance it is better to play as a par four to keep the par at 72 as it always has been.
What sense does it make to design this way? Some change might be needed due to nature, but why needlessly change something that works so well and is really unique? Their proposal does note that the 7-9 yardage (only back tee yardages listed, of course) stays the same in their redesign, as if this is some demonstration of effectiveness.

[Garland Bayley]

What an idiotic redesign approach.
Essentially, ruin the 9th simply because they decided to make the 7th a par 5. From their proposal:
This hole could possibly remain a short par five which would suit the green, but the 7th becomes a par five, so on balance it is better to play as a par four to keep the par at 72 as it always has been.
What sense does it make to design this way? Some change might be needed due to nature, but why needlessly change something that works so well and is really unique? Their proposal does note that the 7-9 yardage (only back tee yardages listed, of course) stays the same in their redesign, as if this is some demonstration of effectiveness.

Makes you wonder if they understand the value of the current hole.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The single bunker fronting the 9th has already been replaced by three pot bunkers.


Different architects obviously see different merits. It is just an opinion. I loved the old 9th.

[Thomas Dai]

They seem to have fiddled with some of the bunkers quite a bit over the years. For example, the front of the par 3 5th once had sleeper faced bunkers but they're now revetted. And some of the bunkers now have faces constructed by the eco/duro process (ie layered astroturf).
atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

The single bunker fronting the 9th has already been replaced by three pot bunkers.


Different architects obviously see different merits. It is just an opinion. I loved the old 9th.

Adrian, do you mean the old ninth with just one bunker? I assume the green contours and surrounds haven’t been altered otherwise?


The three bunkers look a little modern / out of place.

[John Mayhugh]

Here's the green that M&E are going to change just so they can make the 7th into a par 5!
When I played it in 2013, the modernization of this hole hadn't started yet. Just a large single bunker in front.

DSC03173 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
DSC03174 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
DSC03175 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
DSC03176 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
DSC03179 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
DSC03178 by john mayhugh, on Flickr

[Tommy Williamsen]

Here is a lttle video I did on RND.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FFcfTNfUnfw

[David McIntosh]

I really need to play here before it falls into the sea. Calling the UK contingent. Who's up for a road trip?

Sounds like a great idea. I’d be very interested in joining but would depend when the trip is. Been away a few times this year so might be a push, I’d have more chance sometime next year but will see what I can do!

Any ideas on when the works would be likely to commence if voted through at the EGM on 2 August?

I'd be in!
Early Oct would be a good time. Play RND/WH and both Saunton courses.

And could try to throw in B&B and St Enodoc for good measure as would be passing/in the general area.

Robin

When Dai suggested I visit and he'd join me, I checked it out on google maps and the road trip each way was something like 7.5 hours. Not that that would put me off if I/we could maybe build in a game on the way down and one on the way back.

Thoughts ?

Niall

As much as I love a road trip, is there any merit in getting a cheap flight to Bristol and hiring a car for a few days?

[David McIntosh]

What an idiotic redesign approach.
Essentially, ruin the 9th simply because they decided to make the 7th a par 5. From their proposal:
This hole could possibly remain a short par five which would suit the green, but the 7th becomes a par five, so on balance it is better to play as a par four to keep the par at 72 as it always has been.
What sense does it make to design this way? Some change might be needed due to nature, but why needlessly change something that works so well and is really unique? Their proposal does note that the 7-9 yardage (only back tee yardages listed, of course) stays the same in their redesign, as if this is some demonstration of effectiveness.

I was thinking exactly the same thing as I read the proposal. They even admit that the 9th remaining as is would “suit the green” but they’ve decided that keeping the par at 72 “as it always has been” is more important. 

Ditto on the same yardages point (a real sense of so what?!) but seems to be the type of fluffy wording that’ll make the majority of people think it’s a good idea to make all of the changes, some of which aren’t essential.

[Thomas Dai]

As much as I love a road trip, is there any merit in getting a cheap flight to Bristol and hiring a car for a few days?

If concentrating on the WHo/RND-Saunton area and anywhere further south, like St Enodoc, then Exeter airport would be an alternative. Bristol airport though, would indeed be more appropriate if also wishing to include B&B. For just the 'Deep South' courses there's also Newquay airport. All assumes appropriate flights however.
atb

[Tommy Williamsen]

When I was a member at RND I would fly into Bristol, rent a car, and stay in Braunton at a great little B&B. It is close to Saunton and St. Enodoc and Cornwall are just a day trip.


Here is a linjk to the B&B on Trip Advisor.


https://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g551629-d1028644-Reviews-The_Brookfield-Braunton_Devon_England.html

[Adrian_Stiff]

When I was a member at RND I would fly into Bristol, rent a car, and stay in Braunton at a great little B&B. It is close to Saunton and St. Enodoc and Cornwall are just a day trip.


Here is a linjk to the B&B on Trip Advisor.


https://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g551629-d1028644-Reviews-The_Brookfield-Braunton_Devon_England.html

I used to stay there too John. B & B is very close to Bristol Airport, the OPEN CHAMPIONSHIP might still go there the club are thinking about a new clubhouse behind the present 1st tee, with a few more extensions planned its 7100 yards.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The single bunker fronting the 9th has already been replaced by three pot bunkers.


Different architects obviously see different merits. It is just an opinion. I loved the old 9th.

Adrian, do you mean the old ninth with just one bunker? I assume the green contours and surrounds haven’t been altered otherwise?


The three bunkers look a little modern / out of place.

I just looked at Google Earth Ally and noticed the change. I remember a singular round pot right in the front from the mid 80s perhaps I am making it up though, and I thought there was a kickplate to the right that made it not impossible to get on in two.

[Thomas Dai]

This is how the 9th was until the front greenside bunkering was revised - https://www.royalnorthdevongolfclub.co.uk/hole_9
I believe the change was just one wide front bunker replaced by three small revetted pots with the right-side kickplate retained.

One aspect of the three pots is that a Seve-Birkdale-like chip between is now possible.
atb

[Tommy Williamsen]

This is how the 9th was until the front greenside bunkering was revised - https://www.royalnorthdevongolfclub.co.uk/hole_9
I believe the change was just one wide front bunker replaced by three small revetted pots with the right-side kickplate retained.

One aspect of the three pots is that a Seve-Birkdale-like chip between is now possible.
atb

It has been about 8 years since I have been to RND. When were the bunker on nine changed?

[Thomas Dai]

Tommy,
Circa 2015 I believe.
By the way, your video from a few years back in excellent. Well done.

atb

[Thomas Dai]

Here in video visualisation format are M&E’s proposed changes to holes 7-8-9 - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xZWTIIc1yLA

I believe that the members agreed at a recent EGM to the work gong ahead.

I wonder if Tom ever got a response to letter to the Secretary?

I’m still keen on a trip in October to both Westward Ho! and Saunton. Target timing for me is a few days starting on Sun 21st Oct. If others are still interested get in touch.

Atb

[Thomas Dai]

Here in video visualisation format are M&E’s proposed changes to holes 7-8-9 - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xZWTIIc1yLA

I believe that the members agreed at a recent EGM to the work gong ahead.
I wonder if Tom ever got a response to letter to the Secretary?

I’m still keen on a trip in October to both Westward Ho! and Saunton. Target timing for me is a few days starting on Sun 21st Oct. If others are still interested get in touch.
Atb

Bumping this as wondering if anyone has heard when the work is likely to commence?
Atb

[John Mayhugh]

The change for 9 makes sense considering the change for 8. I think the hole may be improved as a dogleg. The view from the tee should be lovely as well. For me the loss of 7 is a great shame. Very unsung hole which is one of the best on the course.

Moved from Formby thread to a RND one.

Agreed that it's a shame to lose the 7th (what a green) but that seems to be unavoidable at some point. My criticism goes from there.
It wouldn't be necessary to change the 7th to a par 5. It could remain a par 4 simply by shifting the green. The issue with doing that is needing to walk an extra 100 yards, which isn't ideal. I don't mind the dogleg on 9, but do think it's a worse hole as a long par 4. That was what was driving the original plans to change the green.

I found it at least mildly disturbing that the M&E proposal included a yardage table showing that they were keeping the total yardage the same. Hopefully this is just marketing (anticipating a potential objection).

[Sean_A]

Tucky

I am not bothered by the long 4/short 5 distinction. In fact, I think for hitters in the 230 - 250 range and shorter with decent tailwind, the hole will likely play better as a long 4. The walk from 8 to 9 will already be less than ideal, so I would not be in favour of mucking it up even more. All in all, subject to execution, this plan strikes me as making the best of a bad situation. Of course reasonable people can disagree. What I will say is its great that a 470ish yard hole will be in play. It does harken back to Fowler's concept of many long par 4s.

Happy Hockey

[John Mayhugh]

My major gripe was changing the green to be "more appropriate" for a longer approach. I can live with the par designation and dogleg otherwise.

[Thomas Dai]

Here’s the M&E proposal in video form -
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xZWTIIc1yLA
One of the aspects of the proposal is that the long gully or channel running crossways in front of the new 8th green and 9th tees will be allowed to flood during very wet periods.
Atb


PS - I can imagine some members following a slow and uncooperative group in front missing out the new 8th entirely and hopping over to the front 9th tee!

[David McIntosh]

The 7th is a fine hole and I have a feeling the changes there will be most sorely felt. I played the course a couple of weeks ago and can confirm the new green is starting to take shape with bunkers and adjoining fairway now in place. I fear the new approach will be somewhat bland in comparison to the current hole when the thrill of playing over the rushes to that excellent green is lost.

Speaking to one of the pros beforehand, they seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on the total number of strokes around that loop remaining the same with the 4-3-5 configuration being replaced by a 5-3-4 sequence.

I like the 9th as it is - straightish, par 5. Changing to a dogleg off the tee might be interesting but I’m not convinced it will necessarily improve the hole. That said, there are quite a few straight tee shots on the back nine so the change may add some more variety if nothing else.

The 9th green is super and it’s certainly more important that was retained than the shape of the tee shot, I just hope it isn’t softened over time due to the relatively shallow green combined with the hole being converted into a long par 4. One of the most exciting shots on the course may well be the pitch or chip on to that green, having missed it, using the surrounding mounds and contours to feed the ball close.