[Jim Hoak]

I know there have been prior threads about Chicago Golf, but with the inaugural Women's Senior Open there this week, I thought it would appropriate to bring up for comment one of the greatest courses in this country.
Check out these new pictures (if I can get the link to work)--
https://www.flickr.com/photos/153314291@N07/albums/72157698144940964/

[Jim Hoak]

One thing I have learned recently about Chicago Golf is that when Raynor redid the course at the insistence of Macdonald he started with a set of drawings by Harry Colt.  Anyone have any insight into this?
By the way, it is believed that Colt did preliminary drawings for Shoreacres in Chicago as well before the final Raynor drawings.

[Andy Johnson]

Jim,


Fan of this board but disappointed to see my content posted a) without permission and b) without attribution.

Also, here is the article from yesterday where "you recently learned" about Colt's plans for Chicago Golf http://www.friedegg.co/golf-courses/chicago-golf-club-history


Andy

[Jim Hoak]

Andy, sorry.  I enjoy your newsletter very much, and I would never knowingly quote from it without permission or attribution.
In fact, I didn't get either the photos or the historical fact directly from that source.  It was sent to me from a club member who said the pictures were from an employee at the Club.
I stand corrected and again, I'm sorry.  Your article is terrific.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Great stuff, Andy.

[Ian Mackenzie]

CGC has firm policies on use of its photos and use of social media.
Am quite sure Andy gets all requisite permissions, but it also may explain where the member said he got the info.


Anyway...


Colt sure did spend a lot of time in Chicago and his hands are on many courses where he may not have fully received “attribution”.


Heard that the USGA asked CGC if they could slow down the greens for the Open.
That course is all about the greens as , aside from the opening three holes, it’s not that tough.


There is just shit loads of native fescue grasses and, since we’ve had so much rain here, it is just brutal. Perhaps the heat and sun of the last two weeks has thinned It out. But, if you’re in it, you’re lucky to find your ball and advance it just back to the fairway.

[Ronald Montesano]

When I started on GCA, I was publishing BuffaloGolfer.com and writing for travelgolf.com. Sine then, I've moved to golfwrx.com for the outside writing part. I've always used my own images, so I've never run into this issue. I did a 3-year sting in libraries and technology at my school, and couldn't help but learn about attribution. As we've seen, the album in question no longer exists, but what we do have is the article on the site.


Organizations like The Fried Egg are making an all-in go of finding a niche in the golf industry. If we happen to have insider access to their material, well, let's consider doing our best to keep it insider. I remember the earliest days of the public interweb, when Pine Valley photos appeared on the web. The club did its level best (without success) to have them removed. Elite clubs are/were very protective about what is used out there, in the void.


This tournament is the one that I wish I could have attended in 2018. I loved Curtis Cup and US Open (not far from my home, same weekish, friends to bunk with) but the chance to see CGC is a once in a lifetime opp. I hope that all midwest GCA crue are able to venture to Wheaton, to see the club.

[Eric Smith]

Jim states he learned his information from a member of the club, not a blog, so one would hope he receives an apology for the public admonishment.

[William_G]

Jim states he learned his information from a member of the club, not a blog, so one would hope he receives an apology for the public admonishment.

admonishment and self-promotion, LOL

its all good

[John Kavanaugh]

Let's not make a Federal case out of this.

[Jim Hoak]

Andy and I cleared the air--off this site by personal email.  The way it should be done in my opinion.  (I only mention it here to make that point.)
I told him that as a former media guy, I was sensitive to the rights of intellectual property, I told him that I apologized for the incident, and that no apology for the admonishment was necessary from him.  It was unfortunate, but all is cleared up now.  I do read his newsletter and I think it is terrific.
So, let's focus on the magnificent golf course and the inaugural event this week.  It's going to be fun to see it.

[E P Purmort]

For those inquiring minds, Fox Sports 1 will have the broadcast on Saturday and Sunday from 4pm-6pm.


USGA Course Tour: [size=78%]http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/championships/2018/u-s--senior-women-s-open/galleries/course-overview.html#expanded[/size]


The tenth green looks phenomenal. Double-Thumbprint??!


Jim, you are a class act.

[Lou_Duran]

For those inquiring minds, Fox Sports 1 will have the broadcast on Saturday and Sunday from 4pm-6pm.


USGA Course Tour: [size=78%]http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/championships/2018/u-s--senior-women-s-open/galleries/course-overview.html#expanded[/size]


The tenth green looks phenomenal. Double-Thumbprint??!


Jim, you are a class act.

Concur.

Having had my "stuff" lifted without permission or attribution in the past, I can't say that I was bothered in the least.   So I thought the admonishment was a bit over the top.  Then, again, I have never attempted to monetize my love for the game.

In the age of Facebook and other message and image sharing technology, can someone who has looked into it (e.g. Mr. Montesano) share with us the do's and don'ts of re-using unprotected images and text? 

[ed_getka]

Who is going to be at Chicago GC on Thursday? I would enjoy walking the course with some like-minded golfers. I'll be there when the gates open.

[Ronald Montesano]

Sweet Lou Duran, et al.


The way I utilize images goes like this:
-If I took it, I have unlimited use, unless I sold it to someone. In that case, re-use depends on our agreement;
-Editorial versus Sale is important. In this article (http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/ledesma-break-through-for-maiden-web-com-win-at-lecom/) I use with permission some images from a local kid I know. He shot them for the Web.Com Tour. I received permission to use them for Editorial use only, as long as I credited them EXACTLY as the Tour required;
-You are always in the clear if you point to an article (there's the crediting part) or site or social media account, VIA A LINK, and say "Look at this image. That's what I'm talking about."


-If you misrepresent an image as your own, or someone else's, you dance with the devil.


I'm certain that copyright lawyers and their ilk can elaborate this point, but it comes down to giving due credit early and often. Or, learn how to shoot images, a la Jon Cavalier, Joe Bausch, and the other great lensmen of GCA.

[Peter Flory]

For those inquiring minds, Fox Sports 1 will have the broadcast on Saturday and Sunday from 4pm-6pm.

Thanks for pointing that out.  Great that they are televising it. 

[Rick Emerson]

Who is going to be at Chicago GC on Thursday? I would enjoy walking the course with some like-minded golfers. I'll be there when the gates open.

Alas, I’m going on Friday with the wife. I would also love to meet up with anyone there. Feel free to PM me. I’m excited  to see the course.

[Andy Johnson]

Andy and I cleared the air--off this site by personal email.  The way it should be done in my opinion.  (I only mention it here to make that point.)
I told him that as a former media guy, I was sensitive to the rights of intellectual property, I told him that I apologized for the incident, and that no apology for the admonishment was necessary from him.  It was unfortunate, but all is cleared up now.  I do read his newsletter and I think it is terrific.
So, let's focus on the magnificent golf course and the inaugural event this week.  It's going to be fun to see it.

I apologize if my response rubbed anyone the wrong way and as Jim mentioned we have cleared the air in a private forum.


The images were taken down because I would like to present them to the public in the way I intended to after spending numerous hours of time, shooting and editing the photos. I hope that members of this board understand that.

[Lou_Duran]

Thanks Ronald.  Learn something every day.

I've been thinking about writing an opinion piece on a regional architect based on a manuscript he authored a few years before passing.  I am a bit ADD and not good with quotes and footnotes.  So, though I have his widow's permission, perhaps the project should be put further down in the pile.

Thanks to this thread I discovered Andy's site and have registered for the newsletter.  Reading CBD's letter brought to mind the infamous Merion thread of years ago and reinforced my opinion that the chances he was involved in its design without receiving proper attribution approach zero.  The man was a force of nature and not given to being slighted or remaining in the background.  CGC is a national treasure.  I hope its 100+ members fully understand their exceptional fortune. 

[Ian Mackenzie]

Reading CBD's letter brought to mind the infamous Merion thread of years ago and reinforced my opinion that the chances he was involved in its design without receiving proper attribution approach zero.  The man was a force of nature and not given to being slighted or remaining in the background. 

Maybe...then again, maybe not.


Andy also knows of Colt's involvement at some other Chicago clubs that has only recently been discovered.
In fact, Adam Lawrence wrote an article in GCA about how there is only one course in the world where Colt and Ross collaborated together. I consider Adam to be a damn fine source of info.

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/a-legendary-collaboration-at-chicagos-old-elm-club

However, "we" came across substantial evidence that Colt/Ross did 2-3 more. One in particular had not been widely reported before Dan Moore came across a newspaper article from the Chicago Daily Tribune (June 27, 1915) and sent it to me.


I sent it to Adam after his great article on Old Elm.


It must have been stuck in his spam folder...;-)

[PCCraig]

Reading CBD's letter brought to mind the infamous Merion thread of years ago and reinforced my opinion that the chances he was involved in its design without receiving proper attribution approach zero.  The man was a force of nature and not given to being slighted or remaining in the background. 

Maybe...then again, maybe not.


Andy also knows of Colt's involvement at some other Chicago clubs that has only recently been discovered.
In fact, Adam Lawrence wrote an article in GCA about how there is only one course in the world where Colt and Ross collaborated together. I consider Adam to be a damn fine source of info.

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/a-legendary-collaboration-at-chicagos-old-elm-club

However, "we" came across substantial evidence that Colt/Ross did 2-3 more. One in particular had not been widely reported before Dan Moore came across a newspaper article from the Chicago Daily Tribune (June 27, 1915) and sent it to me.


I sent it to Adam after his great article on Old Elm.


It must have been stuck in his spam folder...;-)

Where were the other 2-3?

[Mark Chaplin]

I think Dan can be credited with discovering the Colt link to Old Elm, as I understand the club didn’t know about it until he told them.

[Dan Moore]

Mark,


Yes and No.  When I first visited Old Elm ten years ago they attributed the design of the course to Ross. They had the info on Colt including his book of hole drawings. I have been consulting with them the last few years and they are now, after my in depth research, solidly in agreement that Colt was primary on routing the course with Ross staying on to build the course. They are continuing to restore to Colt's original plan including adding some features last Fall Ross did not build. Dave Zinkand did an outstanding job executing these changes to the 12th green and has been doing most of the bunker restoration work over the last few years. 


Ditto Chicago Golf. They had the CBM letter about Colt's plan Andy cited but were not really aware of its significance.  I was able to track down additional details confirming Colt's involvement in drafting a complete rerouting of the course when he visited in 1913 which I provided to them a few years ago.  Last Fall I provided them with detailed historical information on the original Raynor course involving missing bunkers, green expansions and fairway lines which they are discussing with their architect Tom Doak. Tom and I co-authored an article for the Program book highlighting CGC's Template Holes. 


And I provided aa brief article last December on the architectural history of the course. I walked the course for several hours late yesterday afternoon looking at the routing of the oOriginal and New courses and how they were blended together. Fascinating. 


http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/championships/2018/u-s--senior-women-s-open/articles/macdonald-s-architectural-genius-shines-at-chicago-golf-club.html


Example of Old Elm History Map
http://danmooregolf.com/consulting-services/

[Terry Lavin]

Awesome work, Dan!

[BCrosby]

Really enjoyed it Dan. Well done.


Bob

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