Flat Greens

[Cliff Hamm]

Watching the Irish Open.  Announcer states that the greens are flat making them difficult.  Went on to state that at this level golfers prefer obvious break than flat greens - putt was 10 feet or so.  His rationale was that you can read the break but when looks flat will break and can't read it.


To this bogey golfer I can't agree.  I see the logic but it is illogical....

[Kyle Harris]

I've often wondered what putting on a dead-flat green would be like. As greens begin to resemble planes I think the mind has difficulty both gauging the distance as well as interpreting "flat" especially when juxtaposed with surrounding terrain.


Personally, I have trouble when the ground beyond the putting surface is flat-ish in gauging the distance and borrow.

[Tom_Doak]

I've never seen greens that were truly flat.  To achieve that you'd need to build them very carefully, and nobody who builds them carefully is going to build greens that don't surface drain at all.  The closest I've seen are Tom Weiskopf's greens at Double Eagle in Ohio, with a lot of areas at 0.5%.  I kept trying to play a bit of break on 30-40 foot putts only to watch them stay dead straight.


There are many greens in the UK that just lay on the ground, which makes it hard to tell which way they are going.  Some are full of small bird-bath bowls; others drain at 1%.  Most people cannot discern a slope of less than 2% so they will make the mistake of thinking they are flat.

[Charles Lund]

There may be some areas of some greens which are flat.  But calling the greens flat is a significant overgeneralization.


I've played the Glashedy Course many times on my 12 stays at Ballyliffin and can't think of a single green without some degree of slope.  The latest yardage guide shows contours and slopes located in multiple areas on most greens.  The directional indicator lines on TV broadcasts show estimations of the degree of break.  It appears that players are having difficulty reading breaks.  I have the same issue.


I would like to see some putting statistics, greens in regulation, and hole statistics.


The on air commentary would seem to suggest that commentators might avail themselves of more complete information available.


Charles Lund

[Thomas Dai]

Pretty easy to putt right off the front of the green on the par-5 13th on the Glashedy into the greenside bunker and the par-3 14th green can make players look pretty silly too (I have witnessed playing partners suffer on both holes).

Be interesting to see the green diagrams in the booklets the players will have for the tournament.


Given that both the Glashedy and the Old Course return to the clubhouse area after nine holes it’s a bit of a shame they couldn’t have played a composite course incorporating some of the holes on the wonderful Old course, all humps and hollows and moguls and grade level that most of it is.

Atb

[Charles Lund]

I bought the new yardage guides.  Glashedy greens have lots of slopes.  When pin is front left on #13, making a 7 with a green in regulation is not uncommon.


A composite course is an interesting idea.  The Old Links has only one marginal hole (#7), a flattish non-descriot par three.  Yardage from member tees on Old Links is about 300 to 400 yards shorter.  Holes 13 to 18 are my favorite stretch.  Holes 12 through 15 on Glashedy are a great stretch.



Charles Lund

[Mark_Fine]

The greens at Gladhedy are not what I would call a great set of greens but they certainly are not flat.  Just because greens don’t have buried elephants in them doesn’t mean they are flat and don’t have contour.  Some of the toughest greens to putt are those with subtleties.  A diagonal spine or a gentle falloff or lift up can create all kinds of interest and make a huge difference without having to get goofy with wild ups and downs.  Sometimes simple can be complex. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

TD,


Surprised you credit only Weiskoph for Double Eagle....


I have always heard the "flat greens are harder to putt" theory.  Never believed it, but I am not a good player or even decent putter.  But Pete Dye set me straight, saying "Pros like flatter greens because they have to learn them in a few days once a year.  They are easier to learn.  Average golfers like gently rolling green because if they play the course every day, its a little different each time."


He and I also believed rolling greens were just more fun.  Of course, PGA pros don't care about fun.

[Peter Pallotta]

I think flattish greens (one modest tilt) that have been around for a few decades can be quite tricky to putt. You start by seeing/playing for breaks that just aren't there -- but then when you aim straight at the hole instead, little breaks of all kinds seem to crop up, unless you hammer everything 5 feet past. I assume 40 years of settling or top dressing or grain etc is the cause.

[Jeff_Brauer]

As a practical matter, I use what I call "tilted plane" greens, i.e. constant slope in one direction, like tipping a piece of cardboard up at a slight angle on slightly uphill holes where any (even small) roll could tend to blind the putting surface. 


I have experimented a bit, and find that putts on these greens can easily get away from golfers, with no counter slopes to stop the roll.  The max slope to be about 2.25% for comfortable putting.  2.5% gets a bit dicey on green speeds over 10 for those of us who are average putters.  Of course, according to the Jerry Lemons chart or the PGA Tour cup setting guides, you could get close to 4% (with no cross slope at 90 degrees) for those guys, even at speeds of 13.

[Sean_A]

I think when people say flat its a relative term rather than an absolute term.  For sure there are good courses out there which could be improved with more interesting greens...Woodhall, Delamere and Stoneham spring to mind.  However, I find it difficult to get a handle on approaching flatish greens because they tend to be poorly defined.  One clurse with flatish greens which I cannot read is Little Aston.  Putts move, but I simply can't see it and I haven't played the course enough times to remember whats going on.  Whatever, I have time for a few flat greens per 18.

Ciao

[Tommy Williamsen]

Pat said he put a lot of "subtle rolls" into the greens. I think it makes putting interesting. Looks easy except when the ball rolls past the hole.

[Charles Lund]

Graeme McDowell gave an interview where he reported "flat greens" made them trickier.  McIkroy described greens as having double and triple breaks with movement near hole dependent on speed.  Those scoring lower are no doubt making more putts.


Charles Lund

[Jim_Coleman]

   The greens at Bethpage Black are comparatively flat.  Before its first Open, there were fears they (and therefore the course) wouldn't be challenging enough.  Not so much.