How Dry Is Carnoustie?

[Jeff Schley]

We’ve been in St Andrews since 14th April in that time there’s been 2 or 3 short showers and one downpour giving an inch. I doubt there’s been more than 1 1/8th inch of rain in that time.

I believe that downpour was when I was playing the New Course, Saturday, June 16th and I met up with you and your lovely wife later that evening at Dunvegan yes?  I loved it!

[Thomas Dai]

Watching the Irish Open, no need to watch the England-Sweden footie game, shouts from the the street say enough about what’s going on in Samara!, and pondering different links playing strategies/tactics, reminded me of a alleged comment made to Seve by Roberto De Vicenzo while practicing together prior to the 1979 Open.
Apparently Robertos advice was along the lines of “when links courses are burnt up play aggressively from the tee as even if you miss the fairway the lie will most likely be playable, but play conservatively into and around the greens as when burnt up and extra firm shots can easily be dropped there”. Off the tee this approach is very much at odds with that adopted by Tiger at Hoylake. Guess there’s more than one way to skin an Open cat though.
Atb

[Jon Wiggett]

Thomas,


I think Woods played the shots he chose quite aggressively off the tee but chose shorter clubs to avoid bunkers not the rough. He effectively left himself with easier shots into the heart of the green so whilst not exactly what was referred to by Roberto it was in that spirit. Being aggressive off the tee does not mean banging driver all the time.

[Mark Chaplin]

Jeff there’s no doubt your trip coincided with the worst weather of the summer so far!

[Garland Bayley]

Thomas,


I think Woods played the shots he chose quite aggressively off the tee but chose shorter clubs to avoid bunkers not the rough. He effectively left himself with easier shots into the heart of the green so whilst not exactly what was referred to by Roberto it was in that spirit. Being aggressive off the tee does not mean banging driver all the time.

Would playing a longer approach allow him to turn the ball so it would be traveling in the correct direction to run up?

Can't turn a wedge too much, just have to hope it won't bounce too far through.

[Jon Wiggett]

Garland,


it is more about having the right angle to run the ball into the green rather than having to work the ball in the air. The running game is about using land forms to work the ball and on occasion some movement in the air. In the end, it is all about trajectory and lack of spin.

[Niall C]

Jon

Very succinctly put. When people talk about the advances in golf balls spoiling the game the often refer or mean the length the ball goes but I tend to think that its the amount of spin that the top guys can get that negates any strategic design more than length.

Dai

Interesting comments about Roberto and Seve. I recall following Woods one of the last times the Open was at Carnoustie and he adopted his Hoylake strategy of low stinger irons to keep out of trouble. It worked to an extent in that he didn't he was in the pack come the last day but not close enough to win. Of course at that point in his career he had last a bit of the magic on the greens and so wasn't rolling in enough putts to get to the top of the leaderboard. IIRC he eventually lost patience on the way in on the final day, tried to force the pace a bit and ended up coming a cropper a couple of times.

Niall 

[Ryan Coles]

Jon

Very succinctly put. When people talk about the advances in golf balls spoiling the game the often refer or mean the length the ball goes but I tend to think that its the amount of spin that the top guys can get that negates any strategic design more than length.

Dai

Interesting comments about Roberto and Seve. I recall following Woods one of the last times the Open was at Carnoustie and he adopted his Hoylake strategy of low stinger irons to keep out of trouble. It worked to an extent in that he didn't he was in the pack come the last day but not close enough to win. Of course at that point in his career he had last a bit of the magic on the greens and so wasn't rolling in enough putts to get to the top of the leaderboard. IIRC he eventually lost patience on the way in on the final day, tried to force the pace a bit and ended up coming a cropper a couple of times.

Niall

Niall


I think the modern ball actually spins less.


Distance is the issue. The players are coming in with a shorter club.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,


it is more about having the right angle to run the ball into the green rather than having to work the ball in the air. The running game is about using land forms to work the ball and on occasion some movement in the air. In the end, it is all about trajectory and lack of spin.

I remember his opponents hot having success with wedge approaches, because the ball would not stop after clearing the obstructions. I remember him being out of position on one hole and turning the ball so it would run to the hole and holing a 4 iron for eagle. Are you saying that for the most part he was in position to run it straight in, so didn't need to turn the ball in the air?

[Thomas Dai]

Jon and Ryan’s comments on spin are interesting.
I’ve heard it suggested that on the very driest and firmest links courses that playing a high spinning urethane type ball is a disadvantage due to the potential unpredictableness of its landing, especially on less than full shots, ie sometimes spinning excessively (more than expected) when clipped crisply off a really tight lie, but at other times landing and releasing. More so when the exact landing spot can be hard pan or grassy or somewhere in between. Guess everyone’s quality of strike is different though and some are probably better at judging running shots than others. And some probably have better quality grooves on their clubs and some might even keep the grooves clean!
Atb


PS - “Scorchio!”, A nice way to describe current U.K. playing conditions

[Jon Wiggett]

Garland,


basically yes. He left himself the best angles into the green where he could hit running shots and use the contours to shape the shots. Sometimes the shorter shot is the more aggressive approach.


Ryan,


correct with the modern ball spinning less but the disadvantage is this means it has to have a high flight speed to carry the distance plus a high ball flight to create a more vertical decent in order to stop. Of course high ball flight in windy links conditions is pretty crap. High speed means ballooning shots so also not good. The modern ball is not as well suited to links golf as the earlier types. Having said that the 1.68 is awful when compared to the 1.62.


Thomas,


in dry conditions the grooves make little to no difference. If you strike the ball purely ala Ben Hogan (or Howard Clarke) you can stop a ball dead on tarmac (seen it done) However, I have never seen anyone above scratch ever strike the ball that purely as most of us are just experiencing different degrees of miscues 

[Ryan Coles]

Jon and Ryan’s comments on spin are interesting.
I’ve heard it suggested that on the very driest and firmest links courses that playing a high spinning urethane type ball is a disadvantage due to the potential unpredictableness of its landing, especially on less than full shots, ie sometimes spinning excessively (more than expected) when clipped crisply off a really tight lie, but at other times landing and releasing. More so when the exact landing spot can be hard pan or grassy or somewhere in between. Guess everyone’s quality of strike is different though and some are probably better at judging running shots than others. And some probably have better quality grooves on their clubs and some might even keep the grooves clean!
Atb


PS - “Scorchio!”, A nice way to describe current U.K. playing conditions

You’ll never see another Open where greens aren’t receptive to a wedge and with the advent of moisture probes etc, they hand water any localised dry spots creating uniform landing conditions. The greens will be firm, but certainly not baked and unless severely downwind, they’ll easily hold a pro’s 8 iron downwards.

[Daryl David]

You’ll never see another Open where greens aren’t receptive to a wedge and with the advent of moisture probes etc, they hand water any localised dry spots creating uniform landing conditions. The greens will be firm, but certainly not baked and unless severely downwind, they’ll easily hold a pro’s 8 iron downwards.



That’s gotta make Tom Watson steam.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon and Ryan’s comments on spin are interesting.
I’ve heard it suggested that on the very driest and firmest links courses that playing a high spinning urethane type ball is a disadvantage due to the potential unpredictableness of its landing, especially on less than full shots, ie sometimes spinning excessively (more than expected) when clipped crisply off a really tight lie, but at other times landing and releasing. More so when the exact landing spot can be hard pan or grassy or somewhere in between. Guess everyone’s quality of strike is different though and some are probably better at judging running shots than others. And some probably have better quality grooves on their clubs and some might even keep the grooves clean!
Atb


PS - “Scorchio!”, A nice way to describe current U.K. playing conditions

You’ll never see another Open where greens aren’t receptive to a wedge and with the advent of moisture probes etc, they hand water any localised dry spots creating uniform landing conditions. The greens will be firm, but certainly not baked and unless severely downwind, they’ll easily hold a pro’s 8 iron downwards.

I would hope the R&A are more aware of the playing characteristics of links golf than to allow uniform landing conditions. Greenkeeping should be about presenting an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not the perfect sward.

However Ryan, I fear you maybe correct

[Thomas Dai]

You’ll never see another Open where greens aren’t receptive to a wedge and with the advent of moisture probes etc, they hand water any localised dry spots creating uniform landing conditions. The greens will be firm, but certainly not baked and unless severely downwind, they’ll easily hold a pro’s 8 iron downwards.

I would hope the R&A are more aware of the playing characteristics of links golf than to allow uniform landing conditions. Greenkeeping should be about presenting an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not the perfect sward.
However Ryan, I fear you maybe correct
 

+1, regrettably. Less chance of shots like Seve’s chip between the bunkers on the 72nd hole of The Open in 1976 - [size=78%]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7kOYdCAcpsA[/size]
Atb

[Ryan Coles]

+2


It will be firm but it will be uniform firm. STRI are performance testing every day for a fortnight or so and they have target ranges for everything including firmness as measured with the clegg hammer.


Is is a shame as we get enough wet summers in the UK leading to soft Opens. It’s enjoyable to get a dry and dusty one. Still, the course looks terrific.

[Jon Wiggett]

 Still, the course looks terrific.

But how will it play??

[Ryan Coles]

 Still, the course looks terrific.

But how will it play? ?

Of course.


What I meant was it looks like it will play fast and running. Just not with a wedge into the green...

[jeffwarne]

+2


It will be firm but it will be uniform firm. STRI are performance testing every day for a fortnight or so and they have target ranges for everything including firmness as measured with the clegg hammer.

"uniform"
ick
I'm sure it will be great but the "testing" disease seems to be spreading across the pond....
Will Bryson D have his clegg hammer out to gauge the effect of the uniform firmness on his approaches?

[Kalen Braley]

I totally get the brown tint with balls bouncing every which way and all that.


But when divots are dry, dusty, and crusty seems a bit over the top....

[Jon Wiggett]

I totally get the brown tint with balls bouncing every which way and all that.


But when divots are dry, dusty, and crusty seems a bit over the top....

Kalen,


just accept you don't get it and then get on with the rest of your life

[Matthew Essig]

I totally get the brown tint with balls bouncing every which way and all that.


But when divots are dry, dusty, and crusty seems a bit over the top....

Kalen,


just accept you don't get it and then get on with the rest of your life

If your divot doesn't disintegrate into a bunch of sand and get into your eyes at least one time in a round, did you even play a links course? Or if you did, did you even play it in conditions it was meant to be played in?

[David_Tepper]

"If your divot doesn't disintegrate into a bunch of sand and get into your eyes at least one time in a round, did you even play a links course? Or if you did, did you even play it in conditions it was meant to be played in?"

Matthew -

Having played 30 to 50 rounds of links golf per year in Scotland for the past 15 years, my experience has been that current conditions there are very much the exception rather than the rule. For any course in Scotland to go 3-4 weeks with little or no rain does not happen all that often.

DT

[Peter Pallotta]

The last few posts made me think:

Isn't it true that in the old days much of the golf played at courses like Carnoustie was played in the fall and winter, and not in the middle of summer? And if it is true, wouldn't the playing conditions back then, during those non summer golf seasons, have been very different indeed from the conditions we all (me too) praise and value today?

In other words: maybe Carnoustie wasn't originally meant to play the way we're all excited to see it play (?)

[Matthew Essig]

"If your divot doesn't disintegrate into a bunch of sand and get into your eyes at least one time in a round, did you even play a links course? Or if you did, did you even play it in conditions it was meant to be played in?"

Matthew -

Having played 30 to 50 rounds of links golf per year in Scotland for the past 15 years, my experience has been that current conditions there are very much the exception rather than the rule. For any course in Scotland to go 3-4 weeks with little or no rain does not happen all that often.

DT

It doesn't have to be very dry for fescue turf on sandy soil to create loose divots that spray into sand... You can still get that in the middle of winter