[Ally Mcintosh]

To the best of my knowledge, Coul Links will become only the 3rd course ever to be built from scratch by an American designer on genuine GB&I links land.


The other two being Tralee (Palmer) and Ballybunion New (RTJsr).


An argument could be made for Renaissance but I’m sure Tom will admit that much of the site wouldn’t classify as  true links, sandy soil or not.


Can’t think of any others. Clearly Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart weren’t on prime links land.


I don’t really have a point to this thread so take it anywhere you want... if you want... Just thinking out loud.

[Ally Mcintosh]

In fact, will it become only the 3rd new course by anyone in Britain (Ireland has had quite a few) since the 2nd world war on virgin links land?


Balmedie and Mach Dunes being the other two...


Is the new Kimber / Glenn course going to qualify as genuine links land?


Does Srathtyrum count? Are there any more that were on completely new land?

[Jon Wiggett]

Southerness was built in 1946. Other than that Askernish?

[Tony_Muldoon]

possibly some second courses qualify


Jubilee Course at Rye 13(?) holes


Channel 9 at Burnham


Saunton West?


Dundonald ? And by an American too.


Precioius few.

[Thomas Dai]

Some possibles -

Waterville
Moray/Lossiemouth New
The 2nd course, can't recall its name just now, at Turnberry
Machynys at Llanelli - not sure that it comes under Ally's prime links land definition
Skibo/Carnigie re-vamp


atb

[Sean_A]

Saunton West, Carnegie and Dundonald weren't virgin links. Machynys isn't a links. 


Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

To get back to the OT, "prime" linksland post WWII...


Firstly, "prime" is not the same as virgin.  Most of the best linksland had already experienced foreplay (aka "third base") by 1946, for example:


Skibo, Kingsbarns, Askernish, Ballyliffin, Waterville, Dornoch, Turnberryx2, etc.


Secondly, the true virgin links were/are (as I remember in the whole or parts, in addition to the three in the OT):


Machrihanish Dunes-Yank
Trump International-Limey
Hogs Head-Yank
Castle-Yank
Craighead-Yank
Renaissance-Yank
Castle Stuart-Yank
Durness-Heilan Community


Why the American bias?  Very simple.  Follow the money (from both the investors through to the consumers).


Rich

[Niall C]

Dundonald - as Sean says, not virgin territory. Way back in the midst of the 19th century it was used as a basic private course. A new course and club was then developed in the early part of the 20th century into what was at the time one of the longest if not the longest courses in the UK. The club suffered as a consequence of the two wars and I think went into terminal decline after WWII. Part of the property was then used for industrial purposes before again that operation was closed down, any buildings demolished and the land going back to scrub wasteland before being developed anew for golf.

Mach Dunes - certainly linksland but given it was part of a working farm before it was developed, would you call it virgin ?

Buddon, Carnoustie - never played it but it appears and from what I've heard, not exactly a classic links design. Also part of army base so does it count as virgin ? It was however UK financed and designed.

Dai - the second course at Moray started as a nine holer from before the war and was extended into 18 holer in the 1970's (I think) with Henry Cotton putting his name to the design. However the nearby Covesea probably dates from after the war and started as 12 holes of par 3's and has now morphed into a "proper" nine hole course.

Solas course in Uist - not sure if this still exists but I think it was built/laid out after WWII.

Niall

[JMEvensky]

Firstly, "prime" is not the same as virgin.  Most of the best linksland had already experienced foreplay (aka "third base") by 1946, for example:

A great line worth highlighting.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Of course, by throwing in two entirely seperate points / questions, I have confused the thread.


But to Rich: None of the courses you highlight other than Mach Dunes and Trump are really pure links courses. And do you really consider Kidd a yank?


For the second question (links in Britain since WW2), Southerness seems a genuine answer. Some of the others too but they are lesser courses I guess, almost always as add-ons to primary courses.


I guess the point I’m making is Coul is a new development in prime dune land. And there have been very few of those in the last 75 years that don’t have Hackett or Ruddy as their primary credit.

[Niall C]

Kidd is a yank in the same way that Goodale is a Scot 

Ally

It seems to me that much of the links development since the war has been in Ireland ? I suppose in a way Ireland was either catching up or perhaps there was more development there as transport links gradually got into the 20th century ?

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Yeah, there’s been tons in Ireland, at least up until they tied themselves to European legislation much more stringently than the Brits... The 1960 Canada Cup with Palmer et al captured the public’s imagination and there was a step change in the interest, leading to a big push in developing golf courses... So Hackett started roaming the country on behalf of the GUI persuading towns to develop golf cheap as chips... oh how things have changed. Low budget in the “golf business” means something completely different these days.


Been very little in the UK although I think Askernish has to count along with Southerness - there was no real trace of a course there.


On the other point, still think C&C will be only the third Americans evah to get a nice new piece of links for a brand new 18 holer...

[Marty Bonnar]

I can’t think of a single Links hole at the Craighead. Raised beach maybe?
F.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Rihc,


I pretty sure Hogs Head wasn't and isn't links land. Looks like cliff top faux links to me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2SoD2hdjLc

[Tom_Doak]

I have given up arguing about whether a course is a true links by others' definitions.  The Renaissance Club plays like a links now, and we didn't move much earth to build it ... we just moved trees that someone had planted!


There haven't been many links courses built in the U.K. since WW2, by architects of any nationality.  Ireland is indeed a different story.

[Rich Goodale]

Fat and Donal


Raised beach is just the linksland dántan.


r

[Mark Pearce]

I can’t think of a single Links hole at the Craighead. Raised beach maybe?
F.

There isn't one.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Neither Craighead nor Hogs Head are raised beaches though. Hogs Head in its previous incarnation was a heavy soiled swamp.


Regards the first part of the question (Americans ever), The Renaissance Club was always the one I was unsure about but not having seen the site prior to construction, I didn’t know how far the forested part had been managed beyond links recognition. So if Tom wants to be the 3rd man ever, he can have it. And we’ll call Coore the 4th.


Of course, if the 36 at Kilshannig had gone ahead, they’d have been 3rd together...

[Jon Wiggett]

I have given up arguing about whether a course is a true links by others' definitions.  The Renaissance Club plays like a links now, and we didn't move much earth to build it ... we just moved trees that someone had planted!


There haven't been many links courses built in the U.K. since WW2, by architects of any nationality.  Ireland is indeed a different story.

Tom,


Wasn't the land at Renaissance before trees were planted the same as that over the wall? If so I think that makes it 'water meadow' 

[Niall C]

If Renaissance is a links, and I wouldn't argue against it given that it's basically the same terrain as Muirfield, then so I suppose are the two Archerfield courses although one of them is sited on a previous golf course and both on what was farmland (as was the land for Muirfield and Renaissance). Therefore not virgin links.

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Niall,


I guess by my definition, a links is still virgin if it has been used for farmland grazing and therefore most all of the natural contours and soil remains.


If it has been ploughed under for crop farming (as was Kingsbarns) then that no longer qualifies.


Ally

[Niall C]

Ally

Fair enough but how do you classify land that has been under the plough to improve the grass crop for grazing ?

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally

Fair enough but how do you classify land that has been under the plough to improve the grass crop for grazing ?

Niall

Not virgin.


It’s clearly not black or white. But it’s usually fairly obvious what is good links land (even if fairly flat) and what isn’t.


The “virgin” comment really meant pure links  land that hadn’t previous uses that had obviously changed its character, both topographically and in soil profile.

[Jon Wiggett]

As mentioned on another thread I think some people are of the misconception that land can remain links dune land for a long time if left alone which is not the case. Links terrain as we think about it on courses found around the UK is a habitat type that land evolves through before either being washed away by the sea or overgrown through a succession of various scrub plants before turning into woodland. ALL the links land that has remained as is for more than a hundred years has either been grazed or maintained directly by man. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

As mentioned on another thread I think some people are of the misconception that land can remain links dune land for a long time if left alone which is not the case. Links terrain as we think about it on courses found around the UK is a habitat type that land evolves through before either being washed away by the sea or overgrown through a succession of various scrub plants before turning into woodland. ALL the links land that has remained as is for more than a hundred years has either been grazed or maintained directly by man.

This is absolutely true.


But as the links is succeeding through sea couch to marram to fescue to scrub to trees, more dunes are forming behind them. So there is always such a thing as untouched dune land.

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