Ron Whitten's article on the Redan at Shinnecock

[Joe Bausch]

A fellow GCA'er asked that I post the link to this article and maybe it will generate some useful discussion:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/us-open-2018-what-makes-shinnecocks-redan-green-so-unique

And maybe it will even bring out The Lurker from the woodwork!   

[MCirba]

What a terrific article.   


Great to see William Flynn getting the credit he deserves!!

[JMEvensky]

And maybe it will even bring out The Lurker from the woodwork!   

From your mouth...

[Thomas Dai]

In relation to the direction of play, from what angle does the prevailing wind blow on this hole?
atb

[Niall C]

With respect to Ron Whitten I strongly suspect that he’s over thinking it in suggesting that the original Redan at NB had been built and modelled to any degree of accuracy to resemble the feature at Sevastopol. I suspect that it was merely christened that because of a vague similarity in terms of landform and the difficulty of approaching it. That, and the number of military officers who played at NB at the time.

Anyway, back to the discussion..........

Niall 

[John Mayhugh]

With respect to Ron Whitten I strongly suspect that he’s over thinking it in suggesting that the original Redan at NB had been built and modelled to any degree of accuracy to resemble the feature at Sevastopol. I suspect that it was merely christened that because of a vague similarity in terms of landform and the difficulty of approaching it. That, and the number of military officers who played at NB at the time.

Anyway, back to the discussion..........

Niall

Niall,That suggestion seemed absurd to me as well.

[JESII]

In relation to the direction of play, from what angle does the prevailing wind blow on this hole?
atb

Prevailing is from 2:00 on the dial...second most often seems to be from 4:00. Both of which exaggerate the slope of the green which really makes you hit a good shot to get it on the green.

[Thomas Dai]

In relation to the direction of play, from what angle does the prevailing wind blow on this hole?
atb

Prevailing is from 2:00 on the dial...second most often seems to be from 4:00. Both of which exaggerate the slope of the green which really makes you hit a good shot to get it on the green.

Thanks Jim.
Atb

[mike_malone]

At Monday’s USGA architecture forum Wayne Morrison stated that the Flynn tee is 7 feet left. This leads to a different approach.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Seven feet means a differing angle?  How wide was the Flynn tee box?

[Marty Bonnar]

I do wish golf writers would ensure they use revetted and not rivetted when discussing revetments.
 
F.

[David McIntosh]

With respect to Ron Whitten I strongly suspect that he’s over thinking it in suggesting that the original Redan at NB had been built and modelled to any degree of accuracy to resemble the feature at Sevastopol. I suspect that it was merely christened that because of a vague similarity in terms of landform and the difficulty of approaching it. That, and the number of military officers who played at NB at the time.

Anyway, back to the discussion..........

Niall

Niall,

I think that’s absolutely correct. As far as I’m aware, it was Major John Whyte-Melville who on seeing the 6th (as was the case when NB was a 9 holer, the current day 15th) hole for the first time commented that it reminded him of the formidable fortress or redan he had encountered at Sebastopol in the Crimean War. It was the natural landforms that resembled a fortress, not that the green was modelled on the feature at Sebastopol.

There has been a lot of criticism during today’s coverage about the 7th and 11th greens due to players being unable to hold the greens, very small landing areas, shots landing close then rolling off the putting surfaces etc. As Ron alludes to in his piece, there was talk about the USGA leaving the cut a little longer to make these two greens more ‘playable’.

I’m therefore curious to know how the 7th and 11th play for the members. I get that the pros are playing from further back but these guys are the best in the world and I imagine they’ll be hitting higher, cleaner shots with more spin that the average member will be from tees further forward. They may even be playing broadly the same clubs in depending on the length of the hole for everyday play - I don’t know. If these guys are struggling so much to hold the green how does a handicap golfer manage to navigate these holes or is it simply impossible for them to do so?

[Garland Bayley]

What kind of author writes that the hole was modeled after the Redan Fortress, and the continues to write that no one knows whether the person responsible for creating the hole ever knew of or saw the Redan?   

[Thomas Dai]

Out of curiosity I did some web-searching and found this painting/sketch of the defences at Sevastopol during the Crimean War. In the centre is a fortress called......"Redan". Make of it what you wish.
atb

[Kyle Harris]

Redan as a military term pre-dates the Crimean War by a significant amount of time. Ron is drastically over-stating the unique nature of Sevestopol's Redan in military engineering. Perhaps not in lore, however, which is important.

[Rich Goodale]

In addition to the faux pas "rivettiing,"  Whitten misses the fact that the NB Redan was a c. 250 yard par-4 before the current hole was established.  Nice flowery prose, but fake news.

[BCrosby]

As Rich suggests, there is a lot we don't understand about the evolution of the Redan at NB.


NB commentators circa 1900 went out of their way to note that the 'Redan' feature of the Redan was the deep cross bunker about 20 yards short of the green. A feature more in play when the hole was a par 4?


Was the article just more 'Burbeck did Bethpage Black' sloppy history? 


Bob

[Adam Clayman]

From an afar, having never played, perspective, if the steepness of the front slope eliminates any chance to bounce the ball up onto the surface, in rock hard windy conditions, it appears to be another flaw from the faker. 18 upside down frying pans without feeder slopes, either interior or exterior, might be the other. Thankfully, Saturday's conditions made this observation possible. It's either that, or, these pros have had the creative portion of their brain's removed.


P.S. Ok, I admit to making a semi attempt to draw back on board the two guys Gil Hanse just would not shut up about, this weekend.

[James Boon]

While we are heaping criticism on the article rather than discussing the golf hole, I find it difficult to fathom how the headline "What makes ... so unique?" can be applied to a template hole? 

[Dave Herrick]

As I look closely at the Sebastopol painting it appears that, based on the artillery batteries in the foreground, the direction of attack, (in golf terms the position of the tee box), is from the position of the artist. If this is the case the Redan itself appears to me to recede from front left to back right, and the area labeled "Quarries", perhaps akin to golf bunkers, are on the right side of the battlements, not the left as is the case at NB. Further, the slope, "Redan Hill", leading to the battlement is to the left side but the slope on a template Redan leads to the right side of the green. Based on this view, could it be that the Sebastopol Redan was in fact a Reverse Redan. But if the Sebastopol Redan is the original Redan, it wouldn't make sense to call it a Reverse Redan. Thus, would it not be the case that the North Berwick Redan is in a sense the original Reverse Redan?
 

[Jeff Schley]

After just having played NB "original redan" just yesterday I can attest that whatever analogy is being used should include the strongest of defenses, particularly with a 30 MPH slightly helping right to left wind.  UGH!