News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #175 on: June 20, 2018, 03:58:13 PM »
Erik,


I still don't understand why 1-2 keeps being brought up when it states this in the rule..


Exceptions:
1. An action expressly permitted or expressly prohibited by another Rule is subject to that other Rule, not Rule 1-2.
And 14-5 mentions 1-2.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #176 on: June 20, 2018, 03:58:48 PM »
Is “intentionally” hitting a moving ball addressed anywhere?

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #177 on: June 20, 2018, 04:04:15 PM »
Is “intentionally” hitting a moving ball addressed anywhere?
Yes, in 1-2. And 14-5 covers making a "stroke" at a moving ball. They overlap a bit.

11.2 and 10.2 overlap in the 2019 Rules, somewhat, from a quick reading. There's no DQ provision in the 2019 Rules, IIRC, except whatever the 33-7 equivalent is.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #178 on: June 20, 2018, 04:08:05 PM »
Also from the rules of golf, Definition section.  What is a stroke?


A "stroke" is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball,


In what context does rule 14-5 reference 1-2?


(Ball purposely deflected or stopped by player, partner or caddie - see Rule 1-2

So are you saying Phil did not "Stroke" the ball, even thou by definition that's what he in fact did?... ::)   ::)



JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #179 on: June 20, 2018, 04:31:18 PM »
I don’t see how 14-5 touches on this topic. 1-2 is all I can find relating to a player actually stopping and redirecting a moving ball on purpose.


Would have been impressed with Phil if we WD’d because it would have been consistent with the move on 13.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #180 on: June 20, 2018, 04:39:25 PM »
Jim,


That's a key point to this thing.  I can't find anywhere that deals with intentionally taking a stroke at a moving ball, it only discusses purposely deflecting or stopping it, neither of which Phil did.


I think some are claiming that Phil's stroke was not a stroke, but something else...

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #181 on: June 20, 2018, 04:46:23 PM »
Well, it was certainly a deflection.


I think the root is that making a stroke at a moving ball is not what the game is...hence the decisions and explanations around when a ball starts to move, or oscillate, while the strike is in motion.

Tom Ferrell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #182 on: June 20, 2018, 05:08:51 PM »
This is all pretty fascinating stuff.  Here is Rule 14-5 as it stands today.  NOTE THE VERY LAST SENTENCE. 


. Playing Moving Ball
A player must not make a
stroke at his ball while it is moving.[/size]
Exceptions:
Ball falling off tee - Rule 11-3
[/font][/color]
  • Striking the ball more than once - Rule 14-4
  • Ball moving in water - Rule 14-6

  • When the ball begins to
    move only after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of his club for the stroke, he incurs no penalty under this Rule for playing a moving ball, but he is not exempt from any penalty under Rule 18-2 (Ball at rest moved by player).[/size]
    (Ball purposely deflected or stopped by player, partner or caddie - see Rule
    1-2)[/size]


Tom Ferrell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #183 on: June 20, 2018, 05:17:47 PM »
The copy-past feature on this board blows.  But next year's Rules of Golf (11.2) seem to support Phil's "theory."  I think this is a disaster in print, personally...


b. When Penalty Applies to a Player
• A player gets the general penalty if he or she deliberately deflects or stops any ball in motion.
• This is true whether it is the player’s own ball or a ball played by an opponent or by another player in stroke play.


It goes on to say that if the original stroke that was deflected or stopped occurred on the putting green, the player must replace the ball on the spot of the original shot and take the general penalty (two shots). 


As I read it, this is going to become "a thing" in 2019 as the rules are written.  Hopefully the USGA will reconsider its take on this rule.  Deflecting or stopping a shot in motion is 100% against every ideal of golf.





V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #184 on: June 20, 2018, 06:00:27 PM »
In a perfect world he wouldn't have done it... it's blatantly against the highest competitive realms of golf and is derided even in an afternoon recreational nine holes


In a more perfect world, he would have finished out the round to keep his fc's card and then withdrawn...


In the world we have, he does as Phil does (tries to be clever) and impulsively acts on something that was first conjured with Dave Pelz between shoe changeouts at The Mirage.


I don't want to waste the public time of DQing him...him lawyering up ...players taking this side and that...end result, more of a shit show...nothing won or gained, except for social media/web equities...let him just live in his character.


They say that golf reveals character, and it certainly seems true in this case...


cheers  vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #185 on: June 20, 2018, 06:22:09 PM »
If Phil were as smart as he thinks he is, he would know that rather than hitting a moving ball, he could let it run out, see where it ends up, and then declare it unplayable and re-hit from where it had been.  That's a one shot penalty, not two.  And it is more within the spirit of the rules.

This is the second or third time I've seen this comment, and I really don't get where this comes from. Declaring a ball that's clearly playable -- unplayable? That's maybe the most unsporting thing a golfer can do.
I don't want to carry the argument for Mickelson here -- what he did was clearly goofy, and I'm pretty sure (partially) done in spite toward Davis/the USGA -- but declaring a playable ball as unplayable is just as easily unsporting as what he did.


Phil,
It all depends.
       I was doing rules at a tournament at Gearhart GC that included senior women. On the 13th hole a player had a lie
amongst trees near a OB line, about 100 yards short of the green complex. She hit a goodish shot that ended up in a greenside bunker full of beach sand. She had a good lie in the middle of the bunker. She declared her ball unplayable, took S&D back to the lie amongst the trees, then completed the hole. Puzzled, I asked her about what she had done. Her answer - I've been in that …ing trap in the practice round and it took me 6 or 7 shots to get out.
     

No need to cite Rule 28.  27-1 would have sufficed avoiding another inane dispute as to what constitutes an unplayable lie (it is at the player's sole discretion).  Or is taking a stroke and distance penalty also cheating or immoral?

I am not sure why, from a rules standpoint, this is such a complicated issue.  A rule exists, 14-5, which covers the situation in its entirety.  Mickelson made a stroke at a moving ball.  Since the ball was not falling from the tee, it didn't begin moving while he was making the stroke or the backwards motion for the stroke, he is penalized two strokes.

It is up to the USGA officials and, ultimately, the Rules Committee to determine what rule (s) apply in each situation.  I am told by someone onsite who was involved in the ruling that a) it was unanimous, and b) that it took little discussion.

Had the committee DQed PM, it would have been as a populist response in violation of its own rules and at at tremendous cost to its credibility.  While we see this done with expediency in the political arena and much too regularly, thankfully, not so in golf.  To the credit of the USGA and he R&A, the rules are reviewed continuously, modified periodically, and nearly always as it is humanly possible, applied fairly.

As to PM, I suspect his image will take a hit, and maybe even his pocket book.  Yes, he acted poorly and quite possibly tried to rationalize his behavior instead of just falling on the sword.  Maybe a WD would have been a good idea.

I am curious, if he just watched his putt run off the green then placed another ball on the original spot per 27-1 and lagged it to the hole, would he be pilloried with such passion?   Seems to me that he would be saving 3 strokes and still be in full compliance with the rules.  Are the additional 3 strokes he incurred sufficient punishment for hitting a moving ball?  I think so.

     

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #186 on: June 20, 2018, 06:31:37 PM »
Lou,


14-5 clearly says that the intentional deflection of a ball in motion is referred to rule 1-2...which states an example of a serious breach of etiquette deserving of a DQ is when the player intentionally stops a ball from rolling into a water hazard.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #187 on: June 20, 2018, 06:43:38 PM »

     Over the past decade or so the USGA/R&A have changed the wording of many rules to decrease the possibility of disqualification.  If the same sequence of events had occurred to a different player, a different event, etc. the arguments for or against have to be the same to have any merit.
     What "rights" does a player have if they are deemed to be disqualified and there is not a clear wording in the rules which covers the situation?


     Personally I would wish the rules penalty enforced and the ball played, not from where the interference by stroke/deflection/stoppage occurred, but from the approximation of where the ball would have ended up without the interference with the physics of a rolling/bouncing ball



Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #188 on: June 20, 2018, 07:02:27 PM »
Given Rule 14-5 explicitly uses the word Stroke in the main part of the rule...

And then deflection or stop in a side note in brackets as a final side note.... 

I would go with the assertion they meant these as entirely different things.

P.S.  And I think they even anticipated some questions, hence once again why they state in 1-2, any infraction directly addressed by an existing rule is to be governed by that rule.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 07:09:08 PM by Kalen Braley »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #189 on: June 20, 2018, 07:31:56 PM »

Given Rule 14-5 explicitly uses the word Stroke in the main part of the rule...





And then only discusses scenarios in which the ball is addressed and the stroke begins with the ball at rest...otherwise, the situation is referred to 1-2.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #190 on: June 20, 2018, 08:03:31 PM »
Lou,


14-5 clearly says that the intentional deflection of a ball in motion is referred to rule 1-2...which states an example of a serious breach of etiquette deserving of a DQ is when the player intentionally stops a ball from rolling into a water hazard.

By definition, PM made a stroke at the ball.  He did not deflect it or intentionally stopped it.  That he stroked the ball toward the hole demonstrates the only relevant intent.  Had he followed up by slamming the flagstick into the hole then whacking it with his putter to send it flying a few feet (I've actually witnessed this while playing with a former All-American golfer who went on to play in two US Opens and the Senior Tour), then the committee can throw the book at him.

As I keep repeating, the better option for PM once the putt got away from him was to re-place the ball at the spot where he originally putted from, and added a stroke (stroke and distance, something that I am sure all of have us done) to his total.  He was obviously perturbed, frustrated, whatever, and acted impulsively.  As much as some would like, the rules do not allow the penalty of DQ for stroking a moving ball impulsively.

BTW, might you wish to consider who makes up the Rules Committee at the US Open?  These are men and women who not only know the rules intimately, but also their derivation and "the spirit" as well as the letter.  This was not a difficult ruling, though the PR fallout in these very combative, "nuanced" times is altogether different.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #191 on: June 20, 2018, 08:06:06 PM »

Given Rule 14-5 explicitly uses the word Stroke in the main part of the rule...


And then only discusses scenarios in which the ball is addressed and the stroke begins with the ball at rest...otherwise, the situation is referred to 1-2.

And then...what? 

Exceptions:

1. An action expressly permitted or expressly prohibited by another Rule is subject to that other, not Rule 1-2.

The rules make it clear that what Phil did was a stroke. There is no mention that the ball must be stationary for a stroke to occur.   

"A 'stroke' is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke."

I can understand if you think the definition of a stroke is poor, but it is clear that under the rules, Phil took a stroke. 

What I think is idiotic is what if Phil made that shot?  It did hit the hole!  Presumably his score would have been 6 +2, which is whacky and clearly demonstrates the rule is not up to scratch.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #192 on: June 20, 2018, 08:16:11 PM »
No Sean, Rule 14-5 is simply that you cannot make a Stroke at a moving ball...then exceptions are provided. This doesn’t fit the exceptions. This either bounces back and forth or is deemed a breach of etiquette.


Whether it’s 2 shots or DQ, makes no difference to me but it’s a 1-2 issue and exceeds the example given that would warrant a DQ...in my opinion.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #193 on: June 20, 2018, 08:34:52 PM »

A player's ball lies six feet below a cup cut on a significant downslope. The player has putted three times and the ball kept returning to the same general area. On his 4th attempt, as the ball is still moving, (he strokes the ball)(he deflects the ball) into the hole.
Please discuss.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #194 on: June 20, 2018, 08:41:44 PM »
No Sean, Rule 14-5 is simply that you cannot make a Stroke at a moving ball...then exceptions are provided. This doesn’t fit the exceptions. This either bounces back and forth or is deemed a breach of etiquette.


Whether it’s 2 shots or DQ, makes no difference to me but it’s a 1-2 issue and exceeds the example given that would warrant a DQ...in my opinion.

Jim

I don't understand your post because what Phil did is exactly that, made a stroke at a moving ball...breach of 14-5.  You have me very perplexed by your argument. What is it that you don't think Phil did regarding:

A player must not make a at his ball while it is moving.

I honestly don't know what it is you are contending.

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 08:45:25 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #195 on: June 20, 2018, 08:44:55 PM »
How does deflection happen if a player doesn’t take a swat with club? Phil took a stroke, as in an intentional motion of the club as if he went through his normal pre-shot routine? C’mon man!
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #196 on: June 20, 2018, 08:48:56 PM »
How does deflection happen if a player doesn’t take a swat with club? Phil took a stroke, as in an intentional motion of the club as if he went through his normal pre-shot routine? C’mon man!

You could simply place your club on the ground and the ball either stops or is deflected without making a stroke.  To me this is a silly distinction, at least in this case.  It would be interesting to know why there is a distinct difference in the rules and more importantly why the difference in the penalty.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #197 on: June 20, 2018, 08:54:26 PM »
It's pretty easy to deflect a ball without a stroke, just place a putter in the path of a moving ball.


Can't see where that matters much. If this isn't a serious breach, I suppose we have to wait until someone punches their opponent to find out what a serious breach is.


On the upside, perhaps this will introduce a new element of fitness and agility to the game, where young flat bellies can race to their ball to deflect - sorry, STROKE - it into the hole more quickly.


This might be the sorriest thread I've ever read on here. I'd kill it, were I the administrator.


'Tis a pity..........
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #198 on: June 20, 2018, 10:14:42 PM »
George,

This thread illustrates Sayre's Law- "The politics of the university are so intense because the stakes are so low".

There is nothing in the ruling that involves "a serious breach".  Nothing in 14-5 encourages or incentivizes anyone to make a stroke at a moving ball.  As I've noted ad nauseam, all the player would have to do to avoid the consequences of a poor shot is drop or place a ball at the original spot and whack it again with a single stroke penalty (27-1).  He doesn't even have to tell his fellow competitors that this is what he is doing.

You are a smart guy.  We have a common friend who has scored 100 on the rules test, 5 times.  The folks in the Rules Committee for the US Open are of similar timber.  Do you think that they are overwhelmed by the love of Phil, or are they all collectively capable of stinkin' thinking?

Please! 



 

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #199 on: June 20, 2018, 10:23:45 PM »
You are a smart guy.  We have a common friend who has scored 100 on the rules test, 5 times.  The folks in the Rules Committee for the US Open are of similar timber.  Do you think that they are overwhelmed by the love of Phil, or are they all collectively capable of stinkin' thinking?
David Fay thought it warranted a DQ.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.