[Tom_Doak]

Hypothetical: If the PGA tour held an even there and only planned to play in one direction, without thinking about logistics (crowdflow, grandstands, etc.), which course would you use.  Which, if either, do you think is a better test, and/or flows better for tournament golf?  I have an idea of which I'd choose.

Interestingly, one of the governing bodies came and looked at the course before it opened, as a possible tournament site.  They loved the idea of playing it forwards and backwards, but decided it could never work on TV, because they couldn't put cameras in places that worked both ways.


I think the two courses are very close in terms of "test".  The Black routing has a couple of green/tee proximity issues that would be difficult in a large-field event.  Actually, the Tour doesn't like greens and tees very close together - it can be a distraction for players, and a pinch point for gallery flow.

[Jim Franklin]

Personally, I would count it as two.  It is the same property, but not the same course in my mind.

Hardly anyone who has played both routings has made a real distinction between them in terms of quality.  Which makes sense; even though the golf holes are all different, it's the same greens, same undulations in the fairway, same bunkers etc.



It's two very different ways to play over the same fairways and greens - a 10 for variety if there ever was one!  And that was the whole point of the design.  Separating it into two courses just makes that count for nothing, and reduces it to two very good (but hardly unique) courses.


I am still amazed how many people play it just once and don't try the other way.

Couldn't agree more. Makes ZERO sense to classify as two courses. I know you play two different courses, but the genius of the course is it is ONE course that can played two ways. I loved it. Why anyone would not want to experience it one way and not the other just means they do not care about the greatness of the architecture.

[Sean_A]

Personally, I would count it as two.  It is the same property, but not the same course in my mind.

Hardly anyone who has played both routings has made a real distinction between them in terms of quality.  Which makes sense; even though the golf holes are all different, it's the same greens, same undulations in the fairway, same bunkers etc.

It's two very different ways to play over the same fairways and greens - a 10 for variety if there ever was one!  And that was the whole point of the design.  Separating it into two courses just makes that count for nothing, and reduces it to two very good (but hardly unique) courses.

I am still amazed how many people play it just once and don't try the other way.

Couldn't agree more. Makes ZERO sense to classify as two courses. I know you play two different courses, but the genius of the course is it is ONE course that can played two ways. I loved it. Why anyone would not want to experience it one way and not the other just means they do not care about the greatness of the architecture.

I wonder how many people felt this way about TOC? I know I would like to play TOC in reverse, but I am not sure that it can be played in reverse makes the course any better.


Happy Hockey

[Tom_Doak]

Couldn't agree more. Makes ZERO sense to classify as two courses. I know you play two different courses, but the genius of the course is it is ONE course that can played two ways. I loved it. Why anyone would not want to experience it one way and not the other just means they do not care about the greatness of the architecture.

I wonder how many people felt this way about TOC? I know I would like to play TOC in reverse, but I am not sure that it can be played in reverse makes the course any better.

OK, Sean:


For starters, do you consider The Old Course one course, or two? 😉


After building The Loop, I would submit to you that one of the reasons The Old Course is so interesting and unusual is that it was built (or, at least, maintained) to be played the other way around on occasion.  That's why there are so many situations where the best play is to be in the "wrong" fairway, or past the hole.  Those options wouldn't be there if they hadn't been meant to facilitate play on the reverse course - whether we play it anymore or not.


Also, having played The Old Course in reverse, I can tell you they have stopped maintaining some of the pieces that allowed it to work well that way - and if they would fix those, the course would be better the way you normally play it.

[Peter Flory]

I have been meaning to get out to play this for the past 2 summers, but haven't been able to do it.  Have to make it a priority for next year. 

It seems to me that this would be an even more valuable solution for a private club- where members play it so often that they would really appreciate more variety on the same grounds. 

I wonder how difficult it would be to use this concept on a renovation. 

[Michael Wolf]

Was up in Michigan to see family last week and I had a spare day to meet a friend for a round at The Loop @ Forest Dunes. My first time playing the Red routing.

Firmest of any ground conditions I've played on at any course all year. Adding in a pretty good breeze, and I was playing (or should have been playing) some downwind shots for 50+ yards of runout. The place was completely packed, but the course showed no signs of any significant wear and tear from the use of carts.

A nice afternoon.

Michael

[Pete_Pittock]

    Drove to the midwest in mid-August and stayed at Forest Dunes so I could play The Loop in both directions. At the pro shop I bought a yardage book for the Red, as well as for the Black. (I think those colors were chosen so they couldn't offend graduates of either UM or MSU)).  Got out to the course and found it was the same booklet. Hint: draw green slopes and green surround slopes in the yardage books.
    Agree about the conditions. I picked up about 10% in distance, which meant dropping 2 or 3 clubs on approaches. More if you are a low ball hitter. Because of the concept, greens are generally not sloped back to front and you get some stupendous runouts.
    Despite knowing that the course is reversible, it seemed totally alien when I played the second day. Distinct features from the previous days were not prominent from the other direction. Some greens switched from a par 3 to a par 4 with the reversed directionality, which kept the par 3s fresh. 
    After two days of the Loop I played the Weiskopf course. This was my third trip to play golf in Michigan and Forest Dunes was never on my radar (I am a linksy). Now that I have played the resort's original (and only) course) I have no jones to go back for a second stab. In my interpretion of the Doak scale definitely not a 7 or a 6, hard put to give it a 5.
    That is certainly not the case for The Loop.
    When the Midwest Mashie actually can get there, DO NOT HESITATE to sign up.

   

[Sean_A]

Couldn't agree more. Makes ZERO sense to classify as two courses. I know you play two different courses, but the genius of the course is it is ONE course that can played two ways. I loved it. Why anyone would not want to experience it one way and not the other just means they do not care about the greatness of the architecture.

I wonder how many people felt this way about TOC? I know I would like to play TOC in reverse, but I am not sure that it can be played in reverse makes the course any better.

OK, Sean:

For starters, do you consider The Old Course one course, or two?

After building The Loop, I would submit to you that one of the reasons The Old Course is so interesting and unusual is that it was built (or, at least, maintained) to be played the other way around on occasion.  That's why there are so many situations where the best play is to be in the "wrong" fairway, or past the hole.  Those options wouldn't be there if they hadn't been meant to facilitate play on the reverse course - whether we play it anymore or not.

Also, having played The Old Course in reverse, I can tell you they have stopped maintaining some of the pieces that allowed it to work well that way - and if they would fix those, the course would be better the way you normally play it.

I consider TOC one course. I am open to changing my mind if TROC was actually open for play.

The unmaintained areas you mention could be maintained as part of TOC, no? There doesn't need to be a TROC for this improvement.

Ciao

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