[Bob_Garvelink]

I Had a chance to play The Loop (Red Course) about a week ago and had the time of my life.  The course is unique and its unlike anything else that I have played in Northern Michigan.  Its rugged, backwoods, and plays as fast and firm as anything that I have ever played.  Stoatin Brae is a close second in terms of fast and firm so it appears Doak's understudies paid close attention to the master.


The Loop cracks my top 5 public courses in Michigan for sure.  I was very surprised at course conditions as I thought they were outstanding for the age of the course.  The greens rolled better than the Forest Dunes course and I loved how most green complexes allowed you to funnel the ball to various pin locations.


I have played Black Forest, Lost Dunes, and Streamsong Blue and in my opinion the greens are Doak's best.  Not too large and plenty of challenges on approach shots.  I wasn't sure if I would like The Loop but its something every hardcore golfer should check out. 


The course is wide but there is still plenty of opportunities to miss off of the tees and it was also refreshing not to have 1000 bunkers to battle on approach shots as I love to play the low punch shot.


The par 3's on the red course were outstanding and really stole the show for our group.  Our group also noticed how the course played very similar to Stoatin Brae in terms of conditions as I mentioned earlier.  Stoatin Brae is also worth a look if you are in the area.


The Loop @ Forest Dunes is outstanding....its golf the way the game is meant to be played and its rustic, rural and backwoods.  Go check it out and see for yourself and you will not be disappointed. 


Pure Michigan!

[John Foley]

Went around last summer and loved it. The greens and surrounds were phenomenal. Can't wait to get back and play the Black routing and then the Red again.


One question is it has the slope at 115 which for the life of me i can't agree with. Perhaps due to the fact that loosing a ball is very difficult.

[Tom_Doak]

It's strange to me that guys who profess to be interested in golf architecture would go there and only play the course in one direction.  The second day is twice as fun, because the course is so different, but it really helps to have the other round in mind to appreciate how different it is.

[Steve Lang]

   Its strange to me that GCA's who profess to be interested in the average player would not understand that one play and gone is a common experience.  So if its good or fun or interesting they player will return... it is appreciated!

[Kyle Harris]

The slope is 115 because even the mythical Bogey Golfer two-putts more than you.

[MCirba]

A question for other anally-retentive folks like me who count the number of courses played.
For those playing both the Red and Black loops at "The Loop", do you count it as one course played, or two?
Related, might it then be possible to play dozens, if not hundreds (my math skills are wanting) of slightly different courses at the Sheep Ranch?

[Greg Clark]

How is The Loop doing in rounds played compared to the original Forest Dunes course?

[Tom_Doak]

How is The Loop doing in rounds played compared to the original Forest Dunes course?

Not as well, because some people just want to take a cart.

[MCirba]

Not as well, because some people just want to take a cart.

Ugh...at what point did we become so weak, soft, and lazy as a country?   


I see able-bodied kids and middle-aged folks on the golf course in carts all the time and it drives me a little nuts.

[Kyle Harris]

Not as well, because some people just want to take a cart.

Ugh...at what point did we become so weak, soft, and lazy as a country?   


I see able-bodied kids and middle-aged folks on the golf course in carts all the time and it drives me a little nuts.

Probably around the time a course built in 1917 wouldn't allow me to walk because it was "too difficult to walk."

[MCirba]

    Kyle!   I know whereof you speak.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played the Black this morning with the first assistant who hit it miles past me. Oddly enough I din't feel that distance was the most important facet of playing the course. I can see why the slope is as low as it is. It is wide and the bogey golfer can make a lot of bogies. The course was truly fun and played fast and firm. Where it shines are the shots into the greens and recovery shots around the greens. When I missed the green I had the option of a bump and run 5 iron or 7 iron, my P wedge, or my sand wedge, and in a couple places the putter. I could have used the putter from most of the spots but didn't think I could get it close putting it. We looked at the shots into the greens from the Red Course, which was fascinating. There are two biarritz greens. On each course you play straight on, on one hole and from the flanking side on the other.


Tom, Nick told me that you routed the Red first then found the Black. True?

[Mark Pritchett]

How is The Loop doing in rounds played compared to the original Forest Dunes course?

Not as well, because some people just want to take a cart.

Or perhaps some people prefer the Weiskopf course.

[Brad Tufts]

Makes sense to me that the original course would be getting more play because those who thought a visit was not necessary before now want to see the Loop, and if they make the trek they are also playing the original...

[Tom_Doak]

Or perhaps some people prefer the Weiskopf course.

Of course they do.  And of course a lot of people play both.  But the people who don't want to walk, don't play mine.

[Cal Seifert]

Not as well, because some people just want to take a cart.

Ugh...at what point did we become so weak, soft, and lazy as a country?   


I see able-bodied kids and middle-aged folks on the golf course in carts all the time and it drives me a little nuts.

So true.


Will be in northern MI this summer and planning on driving down to the loop. Wish i could play both ways in one day but i will not be there on a day when they do that special.

[astavrides]

A question for other anally-retentive folks like me who count the number of courses played.
For those playing both the Red and Black loops at "The Loop", do you count it as one course played, or two?
Related, might it then be possible to play dozens, if not hundreds (my math skills are wanting) of slightly different courses at the Sheep Ranch?

fwiw, i counted the Loop as one course.

[Tommy Williamsen]

A question for other anally-retentive folks like me who count the number of courses played.
For those playing both the Red and Black loops at "The Loop", do you count it as one course played, or two?
Related, might it then be possible to play dozens, if not hundreds (my math skills are wanting) of slightly different courses at the Sheep Ranch?

fwiw, i counted the Loop as one course.

So I only played the Black today. Is that only a half a course?

[Eric_Terhorst]

Bob Garvelink,
Your comments on the Loop's f&f conditioning, the quality and variety of the 10 (!) par 3s, and the overall fun factor are spot on. 


 I am fortunate to get to play the Loop as much as I want and it's always a blast.  I have played it on successive days with the same hole locations--which might be the best way to experience the fascinating reversal of play.  For example, yesterday's hole location was up front at 15 Black, a par 3 playing ~185 to the flag.  On 15B, you've got greenside bunkers and a repelling front to deal with around that front pin.  The day before the same hole was at the back of the long and large green, this time at the 385 yd par 4 #3 Red.  On the often upwind 3R most mortals will have a longish approach to the green, but the run-up is flattish and the front is open, with hazards not as much in play unless you stray far right.  Your ultimate target on both days is a relatively flat spot around the hole and near the front/back of the green, but you will have to find two entirely different ways to get there.

I agree with Mr. Doak that if you have the time, it's great to experience the course on successive days.  But those who come back another day to play the other way won't be disappointed.  <Is visiting twice on separate occasions an argument for experiencing the Loop more as two courses rather than one?>  In addition, if you haven't played 6B/12R with the hole position #1, you need to come back and try it and decide whether Mr. Doak is like the USGA at this time of year, trying to identify the best players or trying to torture them     

It's true that most visitors prefer the Dunes—especially those who’ve been coming up here for many years specifically to play the Weiskopf course.  I suppose it's mostly because they can ride,  and virtually no one knows the Dunes course is a really nice walk too that can be done in 3:45 by two players.  The Dunes course is more mature, certainly more traditional and requires a type of attack that is more familiar to most players.  It also plays fast, though a tad softer than the Loop’s firm.  The fairways are better defined and there are fewer approaches where you would do better to play away from the hole to get it close, or to a spot off the green to a "good leave" position.

If you have 25 minutes, check out this Michigan Golf Live report that includes  a few comments from Tom Doak:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn--zY1XgYM&t=

[Thomas Dai]

Bumping this thread because I love the reversible course concept and just watched - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aOoMYOQ22f0
Atb

PS - Here’s Rans profile - http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/the-loop/

[Bill Satterfield]

A question for other anally-retentive folks like me who count the number of courses played.
For those playing both the Red and Black loops at "The Loop", do you count it as one course played, or two?
Related, might it then be possible to play dozens, if not hundreds (my math skills are wanting) of slightly different courses at the Sheep Ranch?

Personally, I would count it as two.  When there are two distinct routings that are consistently put into play then I list them as two separate courses in my spreadsheet and value them slightly different in my likes and dislikes.  It is the same property, but not the same course in my mind. 

[Tom_Doak]

Personally, I would count it as two.  It is the same property, but not the same course in my mind.

Hardly anyone who has played both routings has made a real distinction between them in terms of quality.  Which makes sense; even though the golf holes are all different, it's the same greens, same undulations in the fairway, same bunkers etc.



It's two very different ways to play over the same fairways and greens - a 10 for variety if there ever was one!  And that was the whole point of the design.  Separating it into two courses just makes that count for nothing, and reduces it to two very good (but hardly unique) courses.


I am still amazed how many people play it just once and don't try the other way.

[Ronald Montesano]

If I lived within a drive of Forest Dunes, I would not have need to play it both ways on any given day. This past summer, i traveled with friends to the area, and we made certain to play it both ways. I believe we played it one way on Sunday, then played the OG on Monday morning, then the other direction on Monday afternoon.


As with most golf courses that matter, the impact for me is not immediate. I knew that what we were playing was unique, and I absolutely enjoyed every golf shot. I even enjoyed hiding under the cover, as the rains came and went. I loved the challenge of selecting sight lines, and target areas, and landing zones, and was thrilled when my golf ball found an unseen bunker.


I hope that visitors to FD take full advantage of Loop, and toss away their pencils. Keep the scorecard, of course, but don't concern yourself with marking numbers.


Knowing that we would see fairway entrances and green approaches the next day, from a different perspective, made us more aware of the entire space. Coming in from those directions on day two, recalling our previous day's route, made the second round an intellectual bonus exercise.

[Bill Seitz]

Personally, I would count it as two.  It is the same property, but not the same course in my mind.

Hardly anyone who has played both routings has made a real distinction between them in terms of quality.  Which makes sense; even though the golf holes are all different, it's the same greens, same undulations in the fairway, same bunkers etc.



It's two very different ways to play over the same fairways and greens - a 10 for variety if there ever was one!  And that was the whole point of the design.  Separating it into two courses just makes that count for nothing, and reduces it to two very good (but hardly unique) courses.


I am still amazed how many people play it just once and don't try the other way.

Hypothetical: If the PGA tour held an even there and only planned to play in one direction, without thinking about logistics (crowdflow, grandstands, etc.), which course would you use.  Which, if either, do you think is a better test, and/or flows better for tournament golf?  I have an idea of which I'd choose. 

[V_Halyard]

A question for other anally-retentive folks like me who count the number of courses played.
For those playing both the Red and Black loops at "The Loop", do you count it as one course played, or two?
Related, might it then be possible to play dozens, if not hundreds (my math skills are wanting) of slightly different courses at the Sheep Ranch?

I say Deuce. It’s two different courses/routings/approaches.

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