Who thinks a hooked approach on the Home hole at Shinnecock Hills ...

[Tim Gallant]

Brooks hooked approach on 18 being saved by the grandstands wasn't covered nearly enough.  Maybe Joe Buck was tired and didn't want to create another controversy, but saving 5 from another 20-30 yards left in what would've been padded down rough would've been far more difficult than from the short grass where he ended up.  Golf is way down on the list of priorities when it comes to grandstand placement these days.  I'm thinking of a tournament last year where guys were aiming at the grandstand on a par 5 because the drop zone was a pretty easy up and down for 4. 


As for the short grass, when the grassing line changes right at the toe of a slope always seems a bit weird to me.  Left of 11 and back of 1 immediately come to mind.  10 also seemed weird, as did left of 18.

Blake, great observations. Would you be able to elaborate more on your points - especially the grass lines changing at the toe of slopes? You mean so if a particular part of the green juts out in a sort of toe shape, that the grass on the sides is then a different height? What would be better - if the line was slightly lower on the toe - ie more towards the base?

[Mark_Fine]

I commented earlier in the week on another thread about the overuse of short grass at SH.  Everything in moderation and having virtually every green surrounded by short grass was over the top.  Flynn never would envisioned it that way.  Incorrect interpretation of old drawings and Flynn in general if someone feels otherwise.  The course had a Pinehurst #2 feeling around all the greens and Ross never envisioned that either.   No question there are holes/places at SH where it makes sense and adds variety but it was way overdone. 

[Mark Bourgeois]

I rode with P. J. Boatwright during the 1986 Open at Shinnecock and we spent a lot of time discussing the set up. It’s obviously easier to figure out nuances about a course that almost always is played in a strong wind after you’ve watched the best in the world play it during the Open and also had the luxury of playing it several times.

I thought that some of the fairways were too narrow given the crosswinds and firmness of the ground. After my experience setting up Pinehurst #2 for the 1991 TOUR Championship I also thought that some of Shinnecock’s green surroundings would be more interesting with fairway height grass rather than long rough. The approach or philosophy was to widen fairways and surround greens with fairway. Fairways were widened to encourage the use of drivers in crosswinds and bring as many of the bunkers that were nearly obsolete because they were so far into the rough, into play.

Wherever balls would roll away from greens, these areas were cut to fairway allowing players to chip, pitch or whatever thus creating something other than the typical US Open sand or lob wedge recovery shot. To satisfy the club, a new tee was built on #17 that made holding the green with a tee shot impossible except when played either into a headwind or a right to left wind. It was used only during the first round when conditions were exactly right. I was generally pleased with how the course played. The wind blew from three directions over the four rounds and briskly on Saturday. The ninth hole is just not good. It has a second shot that requires a fairway wood or long iron from a downhill lie for some. The steep bank in front of the green covered with rough proved to be too penal.

A few members thought going into the Open that the course was too easy because of the wider fairways and lack of rough around all the greens. I ran into one at dinner after the second round and having ascended to the level of genius after two vodkas told him that he would be proven wrong by Sunday. After Pavin won shooting even par he, along with several of these members, told me how sorry they were they had stuck their noses into something they knew nothing about. Ironically, the changes made on the course for the 1995 Open are now liked by the membership and the course plays very similar to how it did for the event.

The only problem is over watering the fairways-they are way too soft normally.

[Tom_Doak]

Lots of revisionist history going on here.


First off, it was Ran's old friend David Eger who introduced chipping areas to Shinnecock Hills before the 1986 US Open, when a David worked for the USGA.  Those did not exist when I first saw the course c. 1980.


I've not seen iShinnecock since Bill Coore"s work so I don't know how much Bill may have expanded such features.


Those who call for long grass close to greens should remember that in some years that would mean LOST BALLS around the greens for member play.  The long grass at Erin Hills was lost ball country for years after it opened, and it sucked.  Shinnecock' rough has been micromanaged for years now, but its true native character is gnarly.


I've spent all day in Ireland today trying to figure out far to cut back the deep mossy native roughs here so our new course will be playable.  A ball that flies into the native rough now would be a lost ball.  I'm not thinking I want much of that very near my greens. 


Call me a one trick pony if you want ... actually I don't think everything else should be short grass.  But native is not an option where you can't control how thick it is.

[ward peyronnin]

As far as how Flynn would have envisioned the course I heard on broadcast the mention of Tom Paul and Wayne Morrison as consultants by either Hanse or Shackleford I believe and I am confident those guys know Flynn.
Maybe the short stuff is overdone now but at least it forces a variety of shots as opposed to rough which creates interest for me.
 

[Sean_A]

Those who call for long grass close to greens should remember that in some years that would mean LOST BALLS around the greens for member play.  The long grass at Erin Hills was lost ball country for years after it opened, and it sucked.  Shinnecock' rough has been micromanaged for years now, but its true native character is gnarly.

I've spent all day in Ireland today trying to figure out far to cut back the deep mossy native roughs here so our new course will be playable.  A ball that flies into the native rough now would be a lost ball.  I'm not thinking I want much of that very near my greens. 

Call me a one trick pony if you want ... actually I don't think everything else should be short grass.  But native is not an option where you can't control how thick it is.

How soon people forget!  The strangling rough around greens of 80s & 90s Opens was a tragic blight on the game that seemingly still lingers.  We shouldn't soon forget that hackers play Shinny everyday, the pros roll in once every 10 years.  Besides, why the kick back when the vast majority of courses feature the seemingly longed for circle of rough around greens. I am not saying there needs to be huge swaths of short grass around every green, but a decent amount around nearly all the greens is to me vastly preferred to 3 inch rough rings of rough. I think a compromise is for the fairway height to be slightly higher around the greens, large collars if you will, but that does seem like added maintenance for little gain.  All I can say is I much prefer shorter grass around greens to longer grass.  This is especially the case in winter when the rough doesn't properly dry out on parkland courses. 

Ciao 

[Mark_Fine]

I love the idea of short grass around greens for a variety of shot options but it was too much and too penal at SH.  Forced too much defensive shot making and got goofy at times.


I just landed in Dublin Ireland.  Royal Dublin this afternoon then eight rounds up North!  I am sure I will see a lot of short grass (and rough) around the greens over here.  Some don’t know this but Flynn never made the trip across the pond to see the classic links courses.  He liked trees more than most architects of his time (thought the Scots would have been too prudent to have cut them down if they had any) and along with Dick Wilson helped transition/usher in the aerial game.  He would have been ok with some variety around his greens with short grass but the feature was overused at SH. 

[Rory Connaughton]

Mark


  Flynn's 1919 routing of Lancaster depicts fairways surrounding greens in many locations. I have always interpreted this to mean that he originally envisioned fairway cut. My understanding is that Flynn's Shinnecock drawings did not depict this feature nor did later Lancaster drawings. Since Flynn was very hands on at Lancaster for 25 years I am left to conclude that the course as it existed at his death was consistent with his intent.  Did something change in his design philosophy? Is my interpretation of the original drawing incorrect?

[Michael George]

Tom:

I was not advocating tall, narly fescue right next to the greens.  I think that is largely too severe (even though left of the bunker at 18 would have been a good spot for it).  Further, I think some of short grass around the greens at Shinnecock was well done.  I just think they went overboard.

In sum, I think the short grass was overdone on those back to front greens, especially those with severe fall offs over the green.  Was there one back to front green with a severe fall off on the course that did not have short grass carrying the ball 30 yards over the green? 

I am still an advocate for short grass, but I think it was overdone in this instance.

[PCCraig]

I disagree with Ran's initial post.

If Tommy Fleetwood had made his 7 footer for 62 I think the shot that Brooks hit from the left of would of been far more interesting with short vs. long grass.

Brooks still made a bogey from that position left of the pin as he played safe left of the bunker leaving a downhill par putt.

If he needed a par, he would have been forced to hit a very difficult pitch off the short grass much closer to the hole and over the bunker. He would have had a reasonable opportunity for recovery to make a par.

If that area was 5" rough, he would of been forced to hack it left and use the slop to bring the ball back toward the pin no matter his position on the leader board, likely leading to bogey.

Yes, short grass has been overused quite a bit on renovations in recent years. Not every hole needs a run off area. But there is also a reason why it's so popular...it's more fun and interesting.

[William_G]

an uphill lie creates a draw or hook

you must aim to the right

I like the short grass with the super fast greens

totally agree that Erin Hills was set-up perfectly and just never got the wind to dry it out