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corey miller

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Course set-up at US Open
« on: June 10, 2018, 05:36:55 PM »



With everyone attempting to divine the ultimate score and acknowledging that set-up will influence score does it follow that different type set-ups actually heavily influence the ultimate leader-board?


Do certain set-ups help or hurt certain competitors?


And if so, why do the players accept putting so much control in one official (Mike Davis) or one organization (USGA) to set-up the course after each day on a whim?


Are there any events where course set-up (tee, hole locations) is detailed prior to the event? 


Why shorten holes into the wind?  Do we move in the fences in baseball?
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Jeff Evagues

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2018, 07:03:05 PM »
Its my understanding that hole locations are set before the tournament. There might be some moving of tees depending on the conditions.
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Be the ball

jeffwarne

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2018, 11:18:26 PM »
Finally-the wind is actually going to blow at Shinnecock!!!
as it usually does every day
except the first 6 days of the 2004 Open (but it blew Sat night and on Sunday)


It's going to be a great week-UNLESS they actually stop a golf tournament for 20 mph plus gusts (that Shinnecock members play most days)


Brandel just said it-it happens only when slope on older greens doesn't match the agronomy.
Hmmm.... maybe one day we'll figure it's not the slopes that need softening, but rather the agronomy....(but then there's no money in doing less)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 12:08:20 AM by jeffwarne »
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Pallotta

Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2018, 11:45:03 PM »
Ah, my pet peeve, Corey -


Think of it: every year, they have us discussing the pros and cons of the "course set-up".


Some years everyone complains, and so they lose 'the battle'. But in the big picture, they've already won the 'war' - i.e. the war of  words and the framing of the discourse.


Setting up the course? The architecture *is* the 'course set-up!


Any U.S. Open golf course is *already* 'set-up' -- the architecture and prevailing/natural conditions at Shinnecock posing one set/kind of challenges, and that of Baltustrol another, and at Pebble a third -- and Pinehurst and Winged Foot and Olympic all each with their own pre-existing 'set ups'.


But as I say, I think that war was lost a long time ago. Now *everyone* (players and tv and officials alike) is speaking the same language and within the same 'frame' -- oh, this is a *good* set-up, that other one was a bad one etc.


It's gotten so bad that if someone says "You don't *need* to 'set-up' the course -- you've already *picked* it!" he'd sound like a foolish grump.


 
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jeffwarne

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2018, 12:17:36 AM »
Quote from: Peter Pallotta on June 13, 2018, 11:45:03 PM



It's gotten so bad that if someone says "You don't *need* to 'set-up' the course -- you've already *picked* it!" he'd sound like a foolish grump.


 


So true.
Mike Davis has managed to make himself the star-again
This time without even screwing it up.
If i hear "tough but fair" again I'm going to fffing puke


Just pick a course and play it.
Amazing that somehow Shinnecock can have a successful Member-Guest EVERY year without the Blue Coat intervention.


And if the finest courses in the world need 500 yards added on and untold tweaking, resodding, agronomy to the edge but not too far, perfect weather,moisture readers, etc. etc. PERHAPS they should consider reducing the advantages that modern technology continues to provide-and just freaking go play the course chosen.

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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Garland Bayley

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2018, 01:27:11 AM »
Quote from: jeffwarne on June 14, 2018, 12:17:36 AM
...
And if the finest courses in the world need 500 yards added on and untold tweaking, resodding, agronomy to the edge but not too far, perfect weather,moisture readers, etc. etc. PERHAPS they should consider reducing the advantages that modern technology continues to provide-and just freaking go play the course chosen.

Jeff at his best!
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Alex Miller

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2018, 09:34:36 AM »
Round 1 pin sheet.


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MCirba

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2018, 09:45:38 AM »
Bravo jeffwarne, Bravo.
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"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

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James Brown

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2018, 11:57:56 AM »
Anyone still worried about fairway width?!?!?!?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 07:44:57 PM by James Brown »
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Kalen Braley

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2018, 12:06:09 PM »
Haven't seen any live action yet, but the scoring is higher than expected.  Are they missing lots of fairways?


Do we have Mike or the 10-20 MPH wind to "thank" for that?  ;D
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Bruce Katona

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2018, 12:23:22 PM »
Over here "in the swamps of Jersey", the flags are pretty straight - meaning we have a "refreshing breeze".....out on the east end it will be a bit fresher..........the blazers are smiling as par is being defended in the Championship to date .

                                                                                 GOLFWEEK


Live blog: Shinnecock Hills producing carnage on U.S. Open Day 1
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 12:43:02 PM by Bruce Katona »
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Thomas Dai

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2018, 04:31:46 PM »
So what do posters herein reckon to Dustin Johnson’s free drop after Rich Beem stood on DJ’s ball while searching for it in the deep rough?
An appropriate drop or a somewhat inappropriate advantage to DJ? What about ‘protecting the field’?
There was a Ref there but should the rule really be along the lines of ‘replicate as near as possible the original lie’?
Just curious?
Atb
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JESII

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2018, 05:07:24 PM »
I saw the search happening then left the room...did he get to drop outside the rescue?
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John McCarthy

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2018, 06:55:30 PM »
No.  Ball was stepped on and got a drop in the fescue.  Lie was substantially better but when an outside agency may embed your ball I cannot see another way out.  Better than the blind man's bluff I cannot identify my ball which always leaves less grass behind the ball.


I just want some sort of misadventure which leaves threesomes on Sunday and the final group being Woods, Johnson and Dufner.




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The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2018, 09:08:26 PM »
I was there 7 hours today and the longest putt I saw made was 4 feet.
an unspoken way of protecting par....
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2018, 09:20:36 PM »
Quote from: jeffwarne on June 14, 2018, 09:08:26 PM
I was there 7 hours today and the longest putt I saw made was 4 feet.
an unspoken way of protecting par....


I watched quite a bit today.  Did anyone else notice how when putts died they curled around the holes?  Does this mean the holes were cut on locations that were significantly sloped?  If so does this identify the best players or does it insure there won't be low scores?
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It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
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jeffwarne

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2018, 09:31:00 PM »
Quote from: Lynn_Shackelford on June 14, 2018, 09:20:36 PM
Quote from: jeffwarne on June 14, 2018, 09:08:26 PM
I was there 7 hours today and the longest putt I saw made was 4 feet.
an unspoken way of protecting par....


I watched quite a bit today.  Did anyone else notice how when putts died they curled around the holes?  Does this mean the holes were cut on locations that were significantly sloped?  If so does this identify the best players or does it insure there won't be low scores?


Interesting question-I love the idea of slope being used and there were some cool pins(#2 and 1 come to mind)
Not sure it a was slope thing though-plinko was a word I heard many times
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2018, 04:18:33 AM »
I am not sure what all the croaking is about...course set up happens for hundreds if not thousands of courses every week.  Sure, the USGA takes the idea to extremes, which shouldn't be at all surprising, but it seems to me that a course which offers variety in its design should demonstrate and even highlight that variety.  Some of it will be good and some less good, just as is the case with architecture.

Ciao
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JESII

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2018, 05:41:28 AM »
The greens definitely looked slow and bumpy...how is that possible?  Slow I get, I assume they backed off the mower heights a bit due to the wind...I can’t get my head around the bumpy part...
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archie_struthers

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2018, 06:26:50 AM »
 8)


Jim Sullivan how you doing?


Here's my take on bumpy greens . Our winter here at the shore was awful. Not super cold but wet and dreary almost every day . I'm guessing the coast of Long Island mirrored our weather. Spring had been non -existent and our growing season is always two to three weeks behind Philly. Same out there.


I'd be willing to bet the soil temperatures at Shinnecock are still really cool , and the bent is just germinating into the poa mix they have there. So , we get some bumps and bounces on the greens for a few more weeks.


p.s.   No luck on golf wagering at AC yet ....we could have made a few quid on over unders this week







« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 06:30:16 AM by archie_struthers »
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Thomas Dai

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2018, 08:14:03 AM »
Quote from: Lynn_Shackelford on June 14, 2018, 09:20:36 PM
I watched quite a bit today.  Did anyone else notice how when putts died they curled around the holes?


How about Dave Pelz and the ‘donut’ around the hole theory? Ie all players, and in this case some caddies, feet depress the ground near to the hole but no one actually ever puts their feet right on the hole-edge thus a slightly raised  ‘ring’ is created immediately adjacent to the hole which then causes very slow moving putts to veer off at the last milli-second.
Atb
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Charles Lund

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2018, 09:25:30 AM »
Green speed, slope, exposure to wind, and donut type effects probably all contribute to dying putts moving away from hole.  Downhill, sidehill, and uphill slopes magnify, minimize, or diatort breaks accordingly.  I doubt players have cavalier attitude about four footers coming back.


Charles Lund
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JESII

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2018, 11:29:08 AM »
I get it Archie...but they've had this place under the microscope for a hell of a long time to come up with this product.


Re: betting in AC...interesting times. Has to be coming soon. Is this a Ryder Cup year? My guess is before then you'll have an outlet.


Talk soon!
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2018, 11:46:33 AM »
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Mark_Fine

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Re: Course set-up at US Open
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2018, 01:15:34 PM »
I love Shinnecock Hills but I am not sure about all the run off areas around most of the greens.  It is playing a little like Pinehurst #2 and I don't believe either Ross in that case or Flynn in Shinnecock's case, ever envisioned/intended that.  I am not ready to call it over the top but when it is firm and fast and windy and the greens are bumpy, it might get a little _____. 
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