ID Help on Golf Hole Photo, MacKenzie Connection - NOW WITH PHOTO!

[John Cowden]

Nix no. 11 at Pasatiempo:  No bunkers back left and no barranca visible on the right. 

[Kalen Braley]

Nix no. 11 at Pasatiempo:  No bunkers back left and no barranca visible on the right.

They have one back left now, shows it on the current aerials.


And the barranca could have expanded since then via erosion...


But I would agree, its certainly still only in the plausible category...

[John Cowden]

But solid MacKenzie characteristics similar to no. 11 with the steep multi-tier green, false front and “bump” front left....

[Tom_Doak]

It's not the 11th at Pasatiempo ... there was never a road to the left.


It COULD BE the 16th at Pasatiempo, the road is correct for that.  I don't remember it being quite that steeply up at the back of the green, but it's all treed now so I might just be forgetting ... it's been a long time since I was there.


It's definitely not a hole at Crystal Downs.

[John Cowden]

It’s not no. 11.  See Loon Studios’ Gallery photo taken Opening Day from about halfway up the fairway; dissimilar surrounds.  And it’s not no. 16 either as the top tier of that green sits on a slight rise about the same elevation beyond the green, and also with another barranco on the right.

[John Cowden]

Sorry.  Make that “Loon Hill Studios”, accessed via Pasatiempo’s web site.  See Photographs.

[Kalen Braley]

I would agree there John, not 11 based on those pics.


Based on same photos, doesn't look like 16 either as the entire back of the green is covered in trees even back then, and the creek is missing right of the green.

[Thomas Dai]

Joe,
I like that guess...very plausible.  In looking at Google Maps, there is a street just up and to the left of the green, so the position of  that telephone pole makes sense.
P.S.  Thomas, What is street furniture?

Kalen,
It's signposts, telephone/elec poles etc, all that kind of stuff that's alongside roads.
atb

[Sean_Tully]

Neil-


First of all, I owe you an email! Been busy and busier.


This photo was in an auction in the UK which leads me to believe it was from some of the UK/Ireland work that he had done. The look and feel of the photo to my untrained eye says the 1920’s which means it represents some of his work there prior to coming to US.
Should be fun to see if this group of sleuths can figure it out.   


Tully

[Ally Mcintosh]

I really don’t think this is GB&I.


As Dai says, the street furniture looks wrong. More to the point, this is most likely an inland course and there are very few areas in GB&I with sandy sub-soil away from the sea.


I guess there’s a small chance it represents an inland part of a links routing but it doesn’t look right.


However, if I have to make a GB&I guess, what about Seacroft? There are trees, there’s a road and there’s MacKenzie work there. I haven’t been there so pure guess on my part.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Incidentally, the orientation suggests that the approach shot is from the left and likely over the road. If this is the case, there’s also a likelihood that this greensite in its present form has been designed out in the years since.

[Niall C]

However, if I have to make a GB&I guess, what about Seacroft? There are trees, there’s a road and there’s MacKenzie work there. I haven’t been there so pure guess on my part.

Calling Clyde Johnston.

Niall

[Neil White]

Fairly sure it's not Seacroft. 

The orientation of the road and landforms aren't right.


Could it be that the photo was taken from the front right of the green?  If so, could the roadway seen in the image cut across the fairway at an angle front back-left to front-right?

Neil.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I’d say that’s almost definitely the case, Neil.

[Neil_Crafter]

Neil-


First of all, I owe you an email! Been busy and busier.


This photo was in an auction in the UK which leads me to believe it was from some of the UK/Ireland work that he had done. The look and feel of the photo to my untrained eye says the 1920’s which means it represents some of his work there prior to coming to US.
Should be fun to see if this group of sleuths can figure it out.   


Tully

Sean, thanks, I look forward to that email!


Regarding provenance, Graham Rowley of Old Sports Auction has stated that it came from a UK collector. He also thinks it looks US.
Hopefully an ID will be forthcoming.

[Neil_Crafter]

Thanks all for your thoughts.


My view is also that the photo is taken from short right of the green and the line of play is a little left of the photo line. Whether that means the roadway we see at the left cuts across the hole or not, I can't say. Might or might not.


My information is that MacKenzie's design for Seacroft was never implemented so I doubt it is there.


My thinking is still US. But where?

[Garland Bayley]

Here's a wild guess/suggestion. Faux dunes by Egan/Mackenzie at Pebble Beach. 

[Pete_Pittock]

Is this a painting rather than a photo? No shadows, scale wrong on objects.

[Neil_Crafter]

Pete I can state that it is very definitely a photograph and not a painting. Looks like an overcast day to me so minimal shadows. Not sure what objects you think are out of scale.

[Pete_Pittock]

Pete I can state that it is very definitely a photograph and not a painting. Looks like an overcast day to me so minimal shadows. Not sure what objects you think are out of scale.

Neil - what appears to be a bench behind the green. Why is it there?  What is the thing towards the top right, -is it a viewing mirror to provide view of hidden fairway. Thickness of flag -is it half hidden on an upper tier. I'm looking at incongruities - the telephone pole by the green has no arms, probably 1-2 lines, but what is its relationship to poles in the background, which are much 'busier' in comparison.

[Thomas Dai]

Pete I can state that it is very definitely a photograph and not a painting. Looks like an overcast day to me so minimal shadows. Not sure what objects you think are out of scale.

Neil - what appears to be a bench behind the green. Why is it there?  What is the thing towards the top right, -is it a viewing mirror to provide view of hidden fairway. Thickness of flag -is it half hidden on an upper tier. I'm looking at incongruities - the telephone pole by the green has no arms, probably 1-2 lines, but what is its relationship to poles in the background, which are much 'busier' in comparison.

I wondered about some of this as well, hence the street furniture comment....the second telephone pole doesn't have any arms either and there's a similar thickness pole on top of the hill as well.
Like others I reckon the hole plays in from the lower left side of the photo, probably playing over the road and seemingly with a steepish upslope between the two visible front bunkers. The course I play most often is a MacK' and originally 4 holes had greens located not far over roadways, hence some degree of precedent.
If the flat area top-right is a tee I wonder if the next tee-shot was played down the hill (to the right of the photographer's position) or played out to the right?

atb

[Garland Bayley]

14th green at Pebble has road and telephone poles to left and 15th tee behind.

[Pete_Pittock]

14th green at Pebble has road and telephone poles to left and 15th tee behind.

true, but unlikely the subject.  I 'see' the golf course continuing to the right, with a blind tee shot.

[John Cowden]

I’m thoroughly confused, not only by the options now rejected, but also by the solid hint this must be NoAmerica.  Given that, I’m sent in search of sandy soil, but not Pasa, which has wonderful sandy soil.  Never having been blessed with a visit to the VC, I must default to Meadow Club....I’m thinking someplace on the perimeter of the course,...help me, please.....

[Garland Bayley]

E Valley Rd complete with telephone poles parallels a hole on The Valley Club, with perhaps a tee behind the green.