Enlighten me about Dornoch’s greatness.

[Garland Bayley]

I hope the author doesn’t mind but this seems an opportunity to link to two ‘In My Opinion’ pieces within another section of this website -


http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/dornochgoodale/


And


http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/the-architectural-evolution-of-royal-dornoch-golf-club/


There’s a lot more to the Golf Club Atlas website than just the Discussion Board.


Atb

Surprised to see Ran hasn't done a review of the course for the website. He has Brora and Castle Stuart, but not RD.

[Sean_A]

Top 5 in the world was never the question.  It seems everybody including Mayday thinks Dornoch is great.  To me the greatness of Dornoch is self-evident.  Once a course is good enough I am not overly fussed with the tussle of which is #3 or #9...they are good enough for a return visit.  The issue for me becomes about cost, conditioning and the experience.  On these front Dornoch doesn't do very well as it is very expensive, rarely in good nick and visitors times can take 4.5 to 5 hours to get round.  Yet the course has so many high quality holes that its very high on my Happy 100.  If Dornoch was the same price as Elie and St Enodoc and offered a similar visitor experience it would probably be #1 on the list.

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

I think Mark P's implied question of Dornoch vs Brora is a good one. I hadn't seen Brora before last week (had seen Dornoch) and was utterly blown away by it. As a result, I find myself questioning whether there is such a huge difference in quality between the two.


I could certainly see myself, after a full analysis, concluding that Brora had better terrain, which is, after all, the most important factor in defining the ultimate quality of a golf course. Does Dornoch have a green as spectacular as Brora's sixth? Is the major difference primping -- electric fences, sheep, etc?


Have at it.

[Sam Andrews]

Adam, what have you been doing all these years as a golf writer if you haven't been to Brora! It is wonderful because it asks all sorts of questions of your game: can you shape long shots to hold a green? Can you cope with different stances? Par 4s of varying lengths (the first three are 297 (to a wicked green), 344 and 447 mean you have to think hard about club selection and how you flight the ball. The greens are shaped to test the conviction of your putting stroke.


It has par 3s of 190, 162, 125 and 201 (the final hole that is more like a par 4 because it is so uphill) and all at different angles to the wind with wildly different greens. You are right about 6, not least because of the funny little grassy mound on the right of the green, which forces you to chip across that terrifying right to left slope.


There are lines of enchantment from the tee that can lead to proper bother — I think it is 10 that is next to the railway line, which gives everyone pause for thought, like 4 at Woking. Go left and it all becomes much harder with bunkers, rough and a tough angle to the green.


All the while the course provides ground conditions that generally allow you to get at the ball if you end up off line. I really love the course conditioning, so much so that I wish all links courses were kept by livestock.


I really enjoy RD too. It is genuinely spectacular to look at and really questions your choice of club off the tee -- driver is not always the sensible option but there are wonderful little speed slopes that, if you can hit them, take your ball way down the fairway and give you a short iron in. My overall impression is that you have to be brave at Dornoch, it punishes timidity as you would expect of a top class test. It is mentally tiring because you have to concentrate so hard but, having only been twice, I suspect playing it regularly would take some of the fear factor away.


If I were lucky enough to have them close by? RD is all about the first shot and keeping it out of the gorse, so once a month would be great. Brora encourages recovery and experimentation, so every week would be just fine (along with a blast of fun regularly at Fortrose & Rosemarkie!)

[Niall C]

I think Adam's first post has it about right as to the popularity of RD. If it was located in Ayrshire or even East Lothian I don't think it would be anywhere as high in the world rankings, and heaven forbid imagine if you had to drive by an industrial estate or caravan park to get to it !

The journey there, the drive into town and the sudden expansive view as you drive into the car park all add to the charm. That said, the charm has waned some as it's gone from sleepy hollow to main line destination for overseas visitors although I suppose the gaggle of excited golfers near the first tee waiting to tee off helps with creating a sense of anticipation.

In terms of the course, it wouldn't be in my top 5 in Scotland but it is a fantastic course. Two main minus points are too many plateau greens and the back nine being a bit of a slog. With the plateau greens they have some great internal contours but often are blind, and while I like chipping and putting (which is handy given how many greens I miss) I'm not too fond of the repetition of chipping up to a plateau green where I can't see the putting surface.

Niall

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:


Have you been to Ballybunion and Pinehurst No. 2 and thought the same thing -- overrated because of the difficulty to the sides of the greens and repetitive difficulty in recovering?


That's why I have each of the three courses rated so high, actually.  Because they put a paramount on hitting straight approach shots, whether you are coming in with a 3-wood from the fairway, or a wedge, or a chip shot for your third shot.  It just sounds like you did not deploy a strategy to overcome this ... you kept firing away at greens from afar and missing wide.  Better to play short and try to make par from the front of the green.


As for Dornoch's high ranking, as much as I love the course, I think its popularity with Americans is in large part down to the scenery, which is so much more appealing than Muirfield / St. Andrews / Troon / etc.  Indeed both Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart have mimicked that approach to success, and that's why you hear the British posters questioning the popularity of all three courses.

[Niall C]

Adam

Having played Brora a number of times over several decades, a few things struck me when I was up there on Saturday. First off, I'd forgotten there was as much elevation change as there was. Whether that was to do with the openness of the course I don't know.

The second thing was how much land there was. And thirdly, even having played the course a number of times and even on the second round of the day, I was stood on a few of the tees unable to picture the hole ahead. There seemed to be more than one hole with a blind drive over a ridge with a marker stone set in it.

Clearly the course needs a bit of knowing and I certainly wouldn't criticize that, but as things stand I prefer Golspie even though Brora had finer grass/better greens in terms of conditioning.

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

I think Adam's first post has it about right as to the popularity of RD. If it was located in Ayrshire or even East Lothian I don't think it would be anywhere as high in the world rankings, and heaven forbid imagine if you had to drive by an industrial estate or caravan park to get to it !

The journey there, the drive into town and the sudden expansive view as you drive into the car park all add to the charm. That said, the charm has waned some as it's gone from sleepy hollow to main line destination for overseas visitors although I suppose the gaggle of excited golfers near the first tee waiting to tee off helps with creating a sense of anticipation.

+1
As others have said, the remoteness, the journey, the expectation, the views etc all play a huge part in RD's popularity. Alas, on the negative side, in more modern times perhaps more so than in the past, does the number of visitors, the standard of their play and etiquette etc.
Last year some mates and I were considering a repeat of a trip we undertook a couple of years ago. We all wanted to return to Brora, Golspie, Tain and also see Portmahomack/Tarbat and Fortrose. There was also a strong desire to play Castle Stuart. None wanted to play Royal Dornoch again, fine course that it is, even though we all liked the course on the previous visit.
And as a test of golf (architecture even?) I'm not certain it's at the level of many others that are usually below it in various rankings.
atb

[Sean_A]

Have you been to Ballybunion and Pinehurst No. 2 and thought the same thing -- overrated because of the difficulty to the sides of the greens and repetitive difficulty in recovering?

That's why I have each of the three courses rated so high, actually.  Because they put a paramount on hitting straight approach shots, whether you are coming in with a 3-wood from the fairway, or a wedge, or a chip shot for your third shot.  It just sounds like you did not deploy a strategy to overcome this ... you kept firing away at greens from afar and missing wide.  Better to play short and try to make par from the front of the green.

Unfortunately, Ballybunion is covered in rough so the side recoveries are not nearly as prevalent as at Pinehurst.  Despite the fame of #2's greens, the course would have more variety and I think would ultimately be better if something closer to the original Ross greens were in place.  Still, because there is more space to play and therefore more interesting recoveries on on offer, to me #2 is superior to Ballybunion.  Nobody talks about it, Ballybunion is in the same boat as TOC with rough slowly eroding the what made the courses so good in the first place.  Architecturally, I don't think Dornoch is in the class of the above two, not least because of a more straight forward routing.  But it also has some of the weakest holes among the three courses.  Like Pinehurst, I am not sure the greens are as varied as they might be.  On the other hand, Dornoch does have some lovely rumpled terrain which the other courses lack.  At the ned of the day, its all good stuff..though I fully understand that we are being hyper critical.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Unfortunately, Ballybunion is covered in rough so the side recoveries are not nearly as prevalent as at Pinehurst.  Nobody talks about it, Ballybunion is in the same boat as TOC with rough slowly eroding the what made the courses so good in the first place. 

The banks of the greens at Ballybunion aren't mowed tight anymore?  That's horrible.

[Jonathan Mallard]

Unfortunately, Ballybunion is covered in rough so the side recoveries are not nearly as prevalent as at Pinehurst.  Nobody talks about it, Ballybunion is in the same boat as TOC with rough slowly eroding the what made the courses so good in the first place. 

The banks of the greens at Ballybunion aren't mowed tight anymore?  That's horrible.

I played it twice last June.


I can't remember any appreciable portion of any green complex that wasn't shaved tight.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Mayday you are spoiled by playing that Flynn course so much. I appreciated the look and feel of RD, the wide variety of shots needed and how a hole can be so fantastic without a bunker in sight.

Having a great distillery so close, and the aroma in the air, is just a big plus. I guess there are no great bottled water places close.

Have a great time.

ed

[Sean_A]

Unfortunately, Ballybunion is covered in rough so the side recoveries are not nearly as prevalent as at Pinehurst.  Nobody talks about it, Ballybunion is in the same boat as TOC with rough slowly eroding the what made the courses so good in the first place. 

The banks of the greens at Ballybunion aren't mowed tight anymore?  That's horrible.

The banks are pretty well shaved, its the area the banks feed to or just beyond (and I do mean just beyond) which are often rough...the last time I was there anyway. 


Ciao

[Richard Fisher]

Really interested to see Mike's posting on this theme. I have only ever played 36 holes at Dornoch so what follows must be taken with a large pinch of salt: nonetheless, this was the one course of the UK Top Twenty that I have ever sampled that both my regular golf trip buddy and I thought 'that was very good, and very good fun, but not quite in the same league of greatness as (say) Portrush or St George's'. Many years ago, the late Mike Williams of The Daily Telegraph offered the same sort of sentiments, and was beaten out of town (he also queried, ever so slightly, the merits of The Sacred Nine, and was clearly looking for trouble). So I have always been a bit puzzled by its very elevated rankings, endorsed by many GCA people whose opinion I really respect, and have thought I am clearly missing something. So glad to see the subject aired here.

I love remote, small-town clubs with a rich history (one reason I absolutely love both RND and RStD, both of which I would visit in preference to Dornoch) so atmosphere and location are not the issue. Clearly I need to go back, but we're all allowed a couple of blind spots, and maybe RDGC is destined to be mine. Mind you, I also have semi-unsound views in GCA terms about Pennard too. Apologies all round for any offence caused!

[Sean_A]

I also have semi-unsound views in GCA terms about Pennard too. Apologies all round for any offence caused!

Richard

We talked about this and you promised.....

Ciao

[Niall C]

Richard

The views expressed so far seem to range between very good and exceptional so I don't think you are an outlier. In any case I hardly think it condemning the course if you don't think it top 5 in the world !!

Niall

[Mark Chaplin]

David Tepper and Stan Dodd are two reasons to admire RD.


Yesterday’s caddie wanted me thrown off the course for even doubting the Top 15 label. I loved him for it.

They only allow members to caddie so he’s a homer!


It is great having lots of distant members, Deal has many but everyone is a member and mixes and socialises. On my last trip to RD there was a definite locals group in the bar and American members spread about, no mixing, no banter. Why would any overseas member put up with that?


Sean if a golf course is 18 holes IMHO if 6 are great the course can be no better than very good. Proper world class have people arguing over the 1 or 2 lesser holes.

[Ted Sturges]

Mike,


I consider Royal Dornoch a "Doak 10" and would consider it among the top ten courses in the world.


Breathtaking site (playing golf by the sea is so appealing).


Fantastic routing.


Great ambiance.


Firm and fast conditions.


Several world class holes.


One of the FUNNEST places to play golf on the planet (I played 54 holes there one day...couldn't get enough).


I have a friend from my home club in Indiana who is a member at Royal Dornoch.  Last year we were having a discussion on what we both felt was the greatest golf course in the world.  My pick is NGLA.  His pick was Royal Dornoch.  The bottom line reason in his argument was the fact that once we have determined a course is "great" (RD is certainly that), then "how much fun is it to play there?" becomes his factor to differentiate whether one course (in his eyes) should be rated above another.  I play golf to have fun, so his argument carried tremendous weight with me.  He looked me in the eye and asked me how many courses in the world are more fun to play than Royal Dornoch.  I couldn't get to 5...


TS

[mike_malone]

Mike:


Have you been to Ballybunion and Pinehurst No. 2 and thought the same thing -- overrated because of the difficulty to the sides of the greens and repetitive difficulty in recovering?


That's why I have each of the three courses rated so high, actually.  Because they put a paramount on hitting straight approach shots, whether you are coming in with a 3-wood from the fairway, or a wedge, or a chip shot for your third shot.  It just sounds like you did not deploy a strategy to overcome this ... you kept firing away at greens from afar and missing wide.  Better to play short and try to make par from the front of the green.


As for Dornoch's high ranking, as much as I love the course, I think its popularity with Americans is in large part down to the scenery, which is so much more appealing than Muirfield / St. Andrews / Troon / etc.  Indeed both Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart have mimicked that approach to success, and that's why you hear the British posters questioning the popularity of all three courses.

I don’t care to pay the fee at #2.


I love Ballybunion but it has been years since I was there.


Btw Malcolm Duck says hello

[mike_malone]

As I played Leven Links today it came to me that what I like in a golf course is the variety of hazards made by the ground. Leven went up, down, and sideways. Dornoch uses the raised green to an extreme to me.

[Bill Gayne]

Mike,


First, I really enjoyed our round at RD.


Having a couple of days to reflect on the course what stands out for me is the flow of the routing and scale. The holes just flowed and seemed to naturally fit together. It was easy to get into a rhythm. Everything felt in place and that there was nothing forced or unnatural in the routing. I say this even with the walk up the hill. Also the routing and set-up allowed the three middle handicappers to play from the same tees as a plus handicap that could bomb the ball. The course was challenging and fun for all of us with our varying capabilities.


The scale of the dunes were much more than I had seen in other Scottish and English links. The superior scale allowed for the vistas, width, and the ability to change directions within the nines.


As far as comparable courses I would say similarities to Ballybunion and Portrush.


Bill

[Ira Fishman]

At several personal levels, the timing of this thread brings great anticipatory joy.


First, my wife and I will be making our trip to the Highlands in July for the first and probably only time.  As a result of one and only one play, I will confidently resolve all of the debates about the relative merits of RD, CS, Brora, and even Ballybunion.  After all, I am trained as an attorney which means I know far more than the distinguished architects, expert players, and members of the clubs who have played countless times.


Second, thanks to David's generous recommendations, we will dine, and equally importantly, drink well.


Third, we look forward to trying to locate and join the Goodale clan on the beach of Dornoch when our visits overlap. We may be impaired (see above) but oh well.


Ira


 

[Ryan Coles]

This thread should not be about Dornoch’s greatness. It should really be about how good Brora is.

[Ryan Coles]

Mike,


I consider Royal Dornoch a "Doak 10" and would consider it among the top ten courses in the world.


Breathtaking site (playing golf by the sea is so appealing).


Fantastic routing.


Great ambiance.


Firm and fast conditions.


Several world class holes.


One of the FUNNEST places to play golf on the planet (I played 54 holes there one day...couldn't get enough).


I have a friend from my home club in Indiana who is a member at Royal Dornoch.  Last year we were having a discussion on what we both felt was the greatest golf course in the world.  My pick is NGLA.  His pick was Royal Dornoch.  The bottom line reason in his argument was the fact that once we have determined a course is "great" (RD is certainly that), then "how much fun is it to play there?" becomes his factor to differentiate whether one course (in his eyes) should be rated above another.  I play golf to have fun, so his argument carried tremendous weight with me.  He looked me in the eye and asked me how many courses in the world are more fun to play than Royal Dornoch.  I couldn't get to 5...


TS

+1


Add the fact that Dornoch members don’t cream themselves over who is and isn’t a member of the R&A and MCC is a big plus.


The Club remains a hub. Particularly through the winter months.

[James Brown]

    The side to side chipping to multiple elevated firm greens seemed gimmicky in my view


      More greens like Foxy with width sideways. More greens at ground level.
 

Getting savaged by the slopes on the sides of Hole 2 is part of Dornoch’s charm.  That hole is supposed to be frightening.   You mention Oakmont as great, but a lot of people could just as easily look at the first green sloping away and conclude its not great because it’s not fair.  Dornoch has held up to scoring over time in a similar fashion.   Even without wind, Dornoch is no pushover. 


2-6 definitely set the tone.  But the greens on 1, 7, 8, 9, 11, 17, and 18 are all right on the ground.  I would argue 3 and 4 are on the ground too, but that’s a matter of perception. 


However, I appreciate the points made about aesthetics in judging Dornoch against others.  Without the ocean views, it would be less.  But then again, Dornoch is famous for being the “funnest round of golf.”