Studying course architecture, best 10 UK to visit

[Niall C]

Well the first three are easy


St Andrews
Prestwick
North Berwick

Tom

Why NB in particular ? Was that one that was on your list on your first study trip or was it a course you later thought worth studying after you had seen it ?

Niall

[Sean_A]

Huntercombe as an example of creating exciting golf at grade level.

Not sure about that.  Isn't Huntercombe almost the poster boy for artificiality as a good thing?

Mark

You could use Huntercombe as a great example of artificiality, although I think Kington is a better example in terms of aesthetics and function.  Don't forget, many of the hollows at Huntercombe are meant to contain sand and the course would be better if some did.  I take it we aren't including bunkers as part of artificiality 

Huntercombe is also interesting in that the design concept is easily transportable to other sites.  I can see that approach working on many flatish sites so long as drainage is good and/or more hollows contained sand. 

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Huntercombe was going to be my pick for exactly that reason. If you described it to me I would have thought it was a “what not to do” of Architecture but somehow it works. I think it may be that the artificiality is so blatant and doesn’t attempt to apologise for its presence.

Sean,


I don't suppose you got to Kington whilst you were here?  Similar use of artificial mounding around greens.  It really shouldn't work but it's brilliant.

Mark,


it works because the features sit well within the landscape they are set in. There are far too many people even on here who believe that so called minimalism and the even more misnamed natural look are the only true/good form of GCA. It really is bizarre how little most understand ODGs such Mackenzie or Colt as the majority of what they built was not natural in look. As with a good architectural building a well designed course will be obvious and be noticeable in the landscape whilst still being comfortable with it's setting.


The poster child for this style has to be Braid and it would be interesting to see if any of the current high flyers are good enough to pull such a style off.



Jon

[Jim Hoak]

Right behind the obvious Old Course, I'd get him to see the work of the greatest architect in the history of the UK--Colt.  So Sunningdale and Swinley Forest would be near the top of my list.

[Pete Lavallee]

I would say West Sussex at Pulborough employs a lot of architectural techniques that could easily be imported elsewhere.

[Thomas Dai]

Thank you all for the suggestions.
Having played some but not all I’d be inclined to go with something like as under. No real point imo, if your only seeing 10, in seeing courses that generically similar, especially if the same architect originated them. U.K. courses, not Irish.


TOC. Unmissable.
Somewhere that is still yee olde in style...say a Brancaster, Westward Ho!, Askernish
A Harry Colt heathland..could be Sunny New, could be Swinley, could be a lessor
A James Braid on unusual terrain...like a Welshpool, Perranporth, Pennard,
The most original Mackenzie course near Leeds
A hilltopper with grazing animals such as Kington, Southerndown, Yelverton
A modern ‘links’ where plenty of earth/sand was moved...like Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart
Carnoustie...a pretty old, evil/tough course on what is really a pretty flat piece of terrain
Somewhere bunkerless...say my beloved Minchinhampton Old (or Royal Ashdown Forest etc)


That’s 9 by my counting. As for number 10, well there’ll be something to learn from every other course mentioned above but some are a little too close in style to others so no point in seeing courses that are generally pretty similar when there’s a limit of 10. So, flip a coin time....with emphasis imo on a course by Herbert Fowler and/or Tom Simpson.


Atb

[Lou_Duran]

David,

Just how does one go about studying course architecture in the field?  And how often do you think the student's attribution of intent and motivation approaches the architect's real ones?

I suspect that if one really wishes to analyze gca, modern courses, at least in the U.S., are better subjects.  In aggregate, the body of knowledge, equipment, client motivation, and budgets are certainly superior.  Plus, the growing environmental constraints to design and construction are more relevant to the future of the game.  It probably won't be on this site, but Fazio's work at a number of places- Las Vegas, Dallas, MS- might be treated with the utmost respect.   

[Ryan Coles]

1. TOC as the original poster child for GCA.
2. NB for the use of contours and quirky hazards.
3 Kilspindie on how to get the maximum out of a tiny area.
4 Boat of Garten an example of good, solid, simple inland GCA
5 Ogden an example of very good Moorland golf
6 Alwoodley on how to get more from the entirety than the sum of its parts
7 Ganton for its uniqueness and undoubted potential
8. Golspie showing how to mix different styles on the same course
9. Muirfield for the routing and bunkering
10Abernethy to show what should be built more often today

Jon


Re: No 7, Do you feel Ganton could be much more than it currently is?


Not having played it, but always hear rave reviews, albeit with the caveat that it's very difficult, wondered what it needed to fulfil the potential?

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,


Ganton is a great course that is genuinely unique in it style. It does however suffer from a lack of width in recent years due to tree and gorse ingression. I am interested to see what the re-instated waste area in front of the last tee looks like but what the course really needs is a wholesale tree and gorse eradication program followed by a widening of the playing corridors.


As to the difficulty, you need to avoid the bunkers at all costs as they are very severe and the sand is very fine grained making it tough to judge distance of shot.


In the end if you are anywhere near Ganton it is well worth a visit.


Jon

[James Boon]

Most people have already mentioned the courses I would have listed so I wont bother, other than the first two that sprang to mind ahead of The Old Course and the other popular ones on here, were Huntercombe and Painswick, as I'd be keen to show someone something a little different...


No one has really suggested an off the beaten track 9 hole course, somewhere like the Scottish Highlands, so a Durness or a Bonar Bridge? It would give the experience of architecture that is often both created and maintained by the locals which could be an interesting educational experience?


Cheers,


James

[Tom Kelly]

From the places I've seen;



TOC
North Berwick
Prestwick
Carnoustie
Kingsbarns
New Zealand
Notts
Royal Worlington
Sunningdale Old
Walton Heath Old


5 links, 5 inland.

[Jon Wiggett]

Most people have already mentioned the courses I would have listed so I wont bother, other than the first two that sprang to mind ahead of The Old Course and the other popular ones on here, were Huntercombe and Painswick, as I'd be keen to show someone something a little different...


No one has really suggested an off the beaten track 9 hole course, somewhere like the Scottish Highlands, so a Durness or a Bonar Bridge? It would give the experience of architecture that is often both created and maintained by the locals which could be an interesting educational experience?


Cheers,


James

Whilst not as off the beaten path as Durness (excellent choice) Abernethy is rarely on peoples see list James. With Bonar Bridge I think the course lost some of it's character when they changed it as the new holes still need some work on them to fit in and the flow is not so good as it was. I would however say it is a lot less hair raising when busy these days

[Sam Krume]

Ryan,


Ganton is a great course that is genuinely unique in it style. It does however suffer from a lack of width in recent years due to tree and gorse ingression. I am interested to see what the re-instated waste area in front of the last tee looks like but what the course really needs is a wholesale tree and gorse eradication program followed by a widening of the playing corridors.


As to the difficulty, you need to avoid the bunkers at all costs as they are very severe and the sand is very fine grained making it tough to judge distance of shot.


In the end if you are anywhere near Ganton it is well worth a visit.


Jon

Played Ganton last October just as they were finishing the Pandy(had a touch more to do)and loved it. Didnt really feel that it suffered from a lack of width, maybe a couple of holes but hey ho....loved the course and beautiful surfaces.
As Jon mentioned worth a visit, most definitely

Sam

[Jon Wiggett]

Sam,


even a recently as the mid 80's you could see the entire course from the first green area with the only trees being around the 12th hole and some by the roadside by the last. It is quite shocking how much the trees and gorse have grown/encroached as seen in Sean's photos. Ganton never suffered from thick rough so finding a wayward ball was usually easy but not any longer I suspect.


This is what my comment about losing width was referring to. I would add that very many of our links and heathland courses have lost considerable width in the last 30 year. NB for example and of course TOC being the poster child. It is a dumbing down of the game going towards making it harder but losing out on interest.


Jon

[Kevin Pallier]

An even dozen from GB&I - mix of links and heathland golf

St. Andrews - nature / others
Royal County Down - Morris
Royal Portrush (Dunluce) - Unknown + Colt
Royal Dornoch  - Morris + Sutherland
Turnberry - Fernie / Mackenzie
Ballybunion (Old) - Murphy / Simpson etc
Sunningdale (Old) + (New) - Park Jnr + Colt
Royal St. George's - Purves
North Berwick (West) - Strath
Walton Heath (Old) - Fowler
Gleneagles - Braid
West Sussex - Campbell / Hutchison / Hotchkin

[Shelly Jones]

Interesting perspectives. I am duplicating many, and I agree that St.Enodoc, Swinley  and Rye should be included. St. Enodoc prompts the golfer to think outside of the box to get around the course. And it is fun. Swinley has an unbelievable set of par 3's. Rye is often overlooked but it has some very unique holes on an interesting routing.

[Mark Pearce]

Ballybunion (Old) - Murphy / Simpson etc

Have we invaded?

[Jeff Schley]

Ballybunion (Old) - Murphy / Simpson etc

Have we invaded?

Ha ha.... that is a good one.)

[Garland Bayley]

Ballybunion (Old) - Murphy / Simpson etc

Have we invaded?

Yes, but you couldn't hold much land past Derry.

[Neil White]

Has anyone got some suggestions for those courses to visit where a recent restoration or renovation (possibly include tree clearance in this) has to some extent improved them?

[Clyde Johnson]

Has anyone got some suggestions for those courses to visit where a recent restoration or renovation (possibly include tree clearance in this) has to some extent improved them?

Woodhall Spa, though there is more tree clearance and restoration/renovation work to come this November/December.