Best courses rated under 113 slope?

[Jake Marvin]

Bob explained what I meant quite well, although I must admit I'm surprised the average slope rating isn't higher than 120.

[MCirba]

I wonder if that 120 average is for all tees combined and not only back tees?

[Thomas Dai]

Slope rating isn’t really well known on the western side of the Atlantic.
Could someone with experience of playing in for example GB&I please indicate some courses over here that might fall below an imaginary 113 slope? This might help some of us over here get a general understanding of the level of courses under consideration. Thanks in advance.
Atb

[Garland Bayley]

I haven't seen any in the isles that would be under 113. If you par 3s average 110, your par 4s average 325, and your par 5s average 470, with few hazards and short rough, you might be in that neighborhood.

[Pete_Pittock]

If an architect designs a golf course that is exactly as difficult for a bogey golfer as it is for the scratch golfer, as measured by course-raters, would it have a slope of 113?.

[Bob Harris]

I wonder if that 120 average is for all tees combined and not only back tees?

Mike,


Don't know what Knuth was referring to but the average slope for GAP member clubs from tees identified as Member, Middle or White is 127.


Bob

[Jim Nugent]

If an architect designs a golf course that is exactly as difficult for a bogey golfer as it is for the scratch golfer, as measured by course-raters, would it have a slope of 113?.

Slope of 113 means bogey golfers should average 21 strokes more than scratch.  The formula is...
S = (B - C) x 5.381, where S is slope, B is bogey rating, and C is course rating. 

In general, the more par 3s a course has compared to par 5s, the lower the slope goes.  Par 3s are the great equalizers: even pro's barely/rarely average below 3 on them, while bogey golfers have their best chance at making par or even birdie there. 

[Jeff Schley]

If an architect designs a golf course that is exactly as difficult for a bogey golfer as it is for the scratch golfer, as measured by course-raters, would it have a slope of 113?.

Slope of 113 means bogey golfers should average 21 strokes more than scratch.  The formula is...
S = (B - C) x 5.381, where S is slope, B is bogey rating, and C is course rating. 

In general, the more par 3s a course has compared to par 5s, the lower the slope goes.  Par 3s are the great equalizers: even pro's barely/rarely average below 3 on them, while bogey golfers have their best chance at making par or even birdie there.

Good explanation Jim.  Further to this point.  Tiger's stats at the Masters I found up until 2013 were like:

Tiger at the Masters as a pro...career on par 3's +24...par 4's +12...par 5's -126

[Mark Pearce]

Slope rating isn’t really well known on the western side of the Atlantic.
Could someone with experience of playing in for example GB&I please indicate some courses over here that might fall below an imaginary 113 slope? This might help some of us over here get a general understanding of the level of courses under consideration. Thanks in advance.
Atb

Some years ago Dean Knuth rated a number of Scottish courses.  Both Crail Balcomie and Elie have slopes of 113.  I'd happily play the vast majority of my golf on either.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Also, just like course rankings, slope ratings are anchored by the numbers already assigned to the best courses in the area ... if a new course gets scored higher than Merion, the rating team goes back and starts fudging the numbers a little to produce the desired result.

Who knew?!


True, Eddie B?  Or is this more fake news?

Joe Joe Joe, I trust brother Tom is referring to those who rate for magazines and articles. While at times somewhat political I have never fudged a number to make anyone happy. We at GAP would never do such a thing. As the kids say" it is what it is".. We input the numbers and stand by what comes out.

ed

[Ed Brzezowski]

   Aronomink is the course around here that surprises many people.  At 6100 yards, it slopes at 123; at 6500 yards - 126; and at 7100 yards - 130.  Yet all three lengths have course ratings over par.  I guess the raters thinks it's difficult for everybody, but not that much more difficult for higher handicappers.

Jim I was on the  team that just did the rating. It is hard for everyone, playing it in two weeks and looking for the round there to bump up my cap. However I think the numbers you used above might be incorrect.

[MCirba]

Mike,


Don't know what Knuth was referring to but the average slope for GAP member clubs from tees identified as Member, Middle or White is 127.


Bob

Thanks, Bob....
I would say we probably have a slightly higher average slope than most of the rest of the country based on the number of ultra-challenging courses within GAP, but that's simply a gut feel.

[Bret Lawrence]

Jeff,


The most interesting course I have ever played under a slope rating of 113 is Winter Park 9 in Winter Park, Florida.  The rating from the back tees is 96. 


Bret

[Steve Fekety]

Most fun course I have played with the 113 slope rating....Pacific Grove Golf Links.   It is 113 from the tips. 


That's according to the scorecard I found online.  The old card I have on my desk from 3 years ago says 118.  So who knows what is actually correct.

[John Moore]

Crowd favorite Sweetens Cove has a 113 slope from the white tees and 119 from the tips. I would happily play the majority of my rounds there.

[Scott Rosa]

Most fun course I have played with the 113 slope rating....Pacific Grove Golf Links.   It is 113 from the tips. 


That's according to the scorecard I found online.  The old card I have on my desk from 3 years ago says 118.  So who knows what is actually correct.

Steve,


Living in the area and playing it often, I can validate that PG Golf Links is currently 113 from the tips. Definitely agree that it is definitely a great course at the 113 slope.


Scott

[Joe_Tucholski]

Slope rating isn’t really well known on the western side of the Atlantic.
Could someone with experience of playing in for example GB&I please indicate some courses over here that might fall below an imaginary 113 slope? This might help some of us over here get a general understanding of the level of courses under consideration. Thanks in advance.
Atb

As alluded to Dean Knuth rated a number of courses in Scottland.  Here are the results:
http://popeofslope.com/scotland/courseratings.html

[Ken Moum]

At a USGA rating calibration about 15 years ago, I suggested that that in addition to the course rating and slope, they include the Bogey Course rating to their database. They thought it was a great idea. 


In regard to the 113 being the average slope, Dean Knuth’s response:

Golf Digest, December, 2008 Handicaps - Your Questions AnsweredAverage Slope Rating I read that the average course Slope Rating is 113. I've never seen a Slope lower than 120. What gives? A: A When I introduced the system in 1982, the theoretical average Slope Rating was 113 because USGA data showed that scores go up on average 1.13 strokes per handicap stroke. The actual average Slope Rating is 120. The majority of courses in coastal states have Slopes of 121 and higher. Many Slopes lower than 118 are mid-American public courses. The lowest is 55 (short par-3 course), and the highest is 155. By Dean Knuth, Golf Digest Professional Advisor. Former senior director of the USGA handicap department, Knuth invented today's USGA Course Rating and Slope system.

Hmmm.




I wonder why he has all those statements I quoted on his popeofslope.com website?


Lazy?


"They" might have liked it that idea, but until the slope number is gone, golfers are going to think higher means better.


K

[Mike Benham]

Surprised no one has mentioned Lincoln Park in San Francisco.  Perhaps the qualifier of "Best" is the issue. 


From the back tees, it is 5,113 yards, 65.9, slope of 110 and a par 68.

Every year, the young guns (and seasoned veterans) who play in the Championship Flight of the San Francisco City will again prove that rarely will anyone shoot their handicap at Lincoln (a golfer with an index of 0.0 would need to score a 66 to shoot their handicap).

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Slope rating isn’t really well known on the western side of the Atlantic.
Could someone with experience of playing in for example GB&I please indicate some courses over here that might fall below an imaginary 113 slope? This might help some of us over here get a general understanding of the level of courses under consideration. Thanks in advance.

With the World Handicap system coming, you'll be familiar with it pretty soon.

"They" might have liked it that idea, but until the slope number is gone, golfers are going to think higher means better.

Slope isn't going anywhere. It's just a number - it's not the fault of the USGA, etc. if people don't understand what the number actually means.

[Thomas Dai]

Slope rating isn’t really well known on the western side of the Atlantic.
Could someone with experience of playing in for example GB&I please indicate some courses over here that might fall below an imaginary 113 slope? This might help some of us over here get a general understanding of the level of courses under consideration. Thanks in advance.
Atb

As alluded to Dean Knuth rated a number of courses in Scottland.  Here are the results:
http://popeofslope.com/scotland/courseratings.html

Thanks Joe. Appears there’s some rather nice golf even under slope 113.
Atb

[Jim Nugent]

Every year, the young guns (and seasoned veterans) who play in the Championship Flight of the San Francisco City will again prove that rarely will anyone shoot their handicap at Lincoln (a golfer with an index of 0.0 would need to score a 66 to shoot their handicap).

I heard that Lincoln used to give Tom Watson fits when he went to Stanford. 

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks Joe. Appears there’s some rather nice golf even under slope 113.
Atb

The most significant factor you are seeing is the length of course determining the slope. For example, I played Tarbat and Tain in the same day. Tarbat has slope 108 at 5195 yards, and Tain has slope 130 at 6404 yards.

[Pete_Pittock]

Went through a couple of books of Oregon golf courses and the majority of the courses I played growing up (1955-1970) were subsequently sloped in the 113/115 neighborhood. Age probably is a factor.

[Rich Goodale]

My local club.  1st hole picture attached.  113 from the tips, but you can't play from there unless in a competition.  If you can break 80 from the daily tees you can play.


https://www.visitscotland.com/info/see-do/aberdour-golf-course-p261161

Rich