[James Brown]

Bandon
Cabot
Streamsong
Sand Valley


I am [/size][size=78%]curious at peoples views on the relative merits of each on several criterion.[/size]



I have been to Bandon twice, Streamsong several times.  Going to Cabot this summer for the first time.  Sand Valley is on the radar. 


Granted, two of the four are summer destinations only.


Which of the four have the best firm and fast conditions during their peak season?


Which uses the most resources on maintenance? 


Which has the best par three?  Par four?  Par five?


Which has the fastest pace of play? 

[Ally Mcintosh]

I’ll give you another question...


For someone from GB&I who has visited none of these resorts, which one course appeals the most?


And my answer - Cabot Links for what looks like its relative understatement. Pacific Dunes would be my number 2 as it also looks beautifully natural and serene.


Mammoth Dunes looks awesome in scale and scope but along with a few of the other more recent courses, is beginning to look a little like video game golf rather than the real version.


Please understand that all of the above is conjecture. I could very well have my thoughts turned upside down if I visited in reality.

[RJ_Daley]

Ally, while I have not been to Cabot or Streamsong, It just seems to me that based on the multitude of positive commentary, it would be down to season of year and cost.  Really, it hardly seems you would go wrong at any of the mentioned places. 

[Jake Marvin]

Mammoth Dunes looks awesome in scale and scope but along with a few of the other more recent courses, is beginning to look a little like video game golf rather than the real version.

Glad I'm not the only one seeing that... although that's based off of playing SV only, which was already entering the video game realm for me. Not that that's inherently bad, it's just not entirely my style.

[Tom_Doak]

Ally:  your take on Cabot Links is interesting.  I like the course a lot, too, but find it odd that you'd want to travel from Ireland to Canada to play a subdued links when there are so many good ones in your backyard! 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hi Tom, I expected that response from someone and I can’t really explain it. Perhaps it’s because I’m seeing so few new courses at the moment.


More likely I am just concerned that with every new movement, the trend is then to take it and make it bigger, bolder and brasher as every new course comes along, even courses from the early proponents.




If I think about which of your courses I’d like to see most, I could apply the same desire to see the more understated ones such as St Emilion (due to soil I guess) or Barnbougle Dunes (lower budget?) or The Loop (reversible nature). I want to see expert design and shaping applied in a restrained manner - it’s just my preference. Tara Iti looks absolutely amazing. In truth, all of your courses do but I just tend towards the ones that shout the least.


Again, I’ve played very few of them. My opinion might flip 180 degrees if I did.


Nevertheless, I’m concerned that Coul will feel more stylised than it could or should when eventually built. That concern may be unfounded but it must stem from somewhere...

[Ally Mcintosh]

Let me put it another way: I like courses that are difficult to date.


Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle Dunes look like they could date from the original golden age. Mammoth Dunes does not.


Even more so, Eddie Hackett’s courses could date from any age, as far back as the 1800’s. It’s just a shame his strategy  and detailing was so poor.


So my modus operandi in being a golf course architect: To be the next Eddie Hackett with the detailing of a modern minimalist.


I firmly believe that given a good sandy site, the best thing that can happen is that there is an ultra-low budget. It brings out the best in the designer, the constructor and more importantly the land.


James - many apologies for taking this thread slightly off topic. I should have started a new one.

[James Brown]

This is exactly the conversation I was hoping to start.  These four places and others along the same lines are the future of construction in large measure. 

[Jim Hoak]

I have not been to Streamsong, but have played the other 3.
All are terrific. 
For an American, Cabot golf is outstanding, amazing, unique--and the trappings outside the course are great also.  Lobster every night, pretty village that is very different than the US.  The only difficulty is getting there.  If you can get a private plane, that's great.  But if not, it's still worth the trip.
Bandon, it's hard to say, is the older brother.  Great golf, great amenities.  Still hard to get to.  Longer season.  If you haven't been, make it happen.
Sand Valley shouldn't be missed.  Only played the original course but walked Mammoth.  The site is much easier to get to, the one course was great/surprising, and the experience was terrific.
I hesitate to rank the 3 experiences.  All offer something different, yet all are equally worth the trip.  The golf at all 3 is worth the cost and the difficulty of access.  The seasons for each are somewhat different.  Go to the one you haven't been to yet.

[Cal Seifert]

Bandon for an all guys trip


Cabot if the wife’s coming along


Streamsong when you sneak away from family at disney

/s

[Don Mahaffey]

I want to go see Cabot because I want to spend some time in Nova Scotia. Haven’t ever been there but for some reason it feels like Cabot might interact with the community a little more than the others.  I like Bandon and Streamsong a lot, but both resorts seem designed to get you in the front door and keep you there, maximizing revenues, until you leave.   I like traveling for golf as much for experiencing the locales as the golf.  At Streamsong, it just golf and nothing else.  At Bandon there is some nice places to spend some time coming and going. But I’ll take Scottish golf and a bed and breakfast every time if given the chance.

[Jim Hoak]

Cabot--in Nova Scotia or New Scotland--feels like Scotland.  It is a wonderful place.  But don't look for too much community there.  Very small town, very isolated place--but wonderful if you like golf and scenery and lobster!!  Anyone who loves golf who hasn't gone is really missing something.  Tough to get to, but worth the effort.

[Ryan Farrow]

I want to go see Cabot because I want to spend some time in Nova Scotia. Haven’t ever been there but for some reason it feels like Cabot might interact with the community a little more than the others.  I like Bandon and Streamsong a lot, but both resorts seem designed to get you in the front door and keep you there, maximizing revenues, until you leave.   I like traveling for golf as much for experiencing the locales as the golf.  At Streamsong, it just golf and nothing else.  At Bandon there is some nice places to spend some time coming and going. But I’ll take Scottish golf and a bed and breakfast every time if given the chance.

Don,


Sand Valley is a really nice community project. The understated architecture, entry etc. does not scare the locals away, neither does the cheap beer and food at Craig's porch. Plenty of folks just wonder around property, I hope the par 3 course will attract even more of them. Fish Friday's is another thing that gets them to the course, not just working on it.

[Connor Dougherty]

I want to go see Cabot because I want to spend some time in Nova Scotia. Haven’t ever been there but for some reason it feels like Cabot might interact with the community a little more than the others.  I like Bandon and Streamsong a lot, but both resorts seem designed to get you in the front door and keep you there, maximizing revenues, until you leave.   I like traveling for golf as much for experiencing the locales as the golf.  At Streamsong, it just golf and nothing else.  At Bandon there is some nice places to spend some time coming and going. But I’ll take Scottish golf and a bed and breakfast every time if given the chance.

Don,


Sand Valley is a really nice community project. The understated architecture, entry etc. does not scare the locals away, neither does the cheap beer and food at Craig's porch. Plenty of folks just wonder around property, I hope the par 3 course will attract even more of them. Fish Friday's is another thing that gets them to the course, not just working on it.

Ryan, I would agree with that assessment. There's a lot of summer homes in the area which gives the course a much more local feel, and many of the visitors, at least while I was there, were Wisconsin or Chicago natives. It really helped give the whole facility a good sense of place. It does sound like they're hoping to gear the resort a bit more toward a family vibe for that reason.


I had actually written a paper about Bandon Dunes' sense of place in college, and what I had said was that the resort was very well geared toward creating a positive social atmosphere between guests, but as rates have increased there, it has much more of a superiority complex. Walking around in the restaurants and the lobbies seems like one giant game of logo bingo, with each golfer just trying to one-up the other. All of the features of the resort which try to connect people are not utilized, and the resort's immediate pressure to book your dinners at check in keeps people from venturing down into town. Bandon Muni I thought had the chance to change that, but as that project has fallen to the wayside and players visiting usually don't venture to Bandon Crossings, it seems like it's only gotten worse.

[Tom_Doak]

If you're complaining about logo bingo, you must be losing at it ... if you didn't care you wouldn't be paying attention.  A local in Bandon would not give two cents about the little squirrel on your shirt.

[James Brown]

But I’ll take Scottish golf and a bed and breakfast every time if given the chance.

We can do both. 

[Kalen Braley]

I think it was always inevitable for a place like Bandon to "Sell out".  Its been there awhile, its mature, everyone knows about, and its pretty much all built out.  So of course they would transition from "lets impress" to "lets penny pinch and milk this cow".


I was passing thru last December on a rainy day, no time for golf, but I did have lunch in the Pac Dunes restaurant.  Food was only slightly better than Dennys but cost twice as much. 

[Jim Hoak]

Kalen, how could you have been "passing through" Bandon?  Were you lost?
Interesting that the 4 locales being asked about on this thread are all 4 really out of the mainstream--and somewhat hard to get to.  Is it just because all the good golf land had been taken?

[Stewart Abramson]

Bandon for an all guys trip
Cabot if the wife’s coming along
Streamsong when you sneak away from family at disney

/s

That's funny and exactly what my first trip to each was, although I've returned to Streamsong on guys trips.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen, how could you have been "passing through" Bandon?  Were you lost?
Interesting that the 4 locales being asked about on this thread are all 4 really out of the mainstream--and somewhat hard to get to.  Is it just because all the good golf land had been taken?

Jim


Its a long story, I'll spare you the details...


P.S.  I don't think its a secret a Mike's model includes getting property relatively cheap...which explains the remoteness aspect.  The risk was in "if you build it will they come?"

[Connor Dougherty]

If you're complaining about logo bingo, you must be losing at it ... if you didn't care you wouldn't be paying attention.  A local in Bandon would not give two cents about the little squirrel on your shirt.

Tom,
At that point I was driving down almost every weekend from Eugene to go hang out at the resort. It wasn't always paired with golf, and the purpose of the paper only had some to do with golf course architecture. But I was trying to observe and come up with descriptions for what others were doing. The locals and employees certainly could care less about what logo was on each shirt, which is why I found the feel of the town itself and the attitude of the employees to be so great. It's why I still love going to hang out in the town of Bandon when I'm in Oregon.


What I was basing that comment on is how each time I sat down in one of the restaurants or at the bar, there was little conversation between groups, everyone was isolated to their own location, and there was a lot of panning the room, from everyone. I enjoy logo bingo, mostly because when I see someone wearing a shirt from some place I know about I like to ask them what they thought of the golf course. It's a great way to get opinions from those who are not necessarily as dedicated or as studied on golf course architecture as we are, and they sometimes will say things none of us see because we're too focused on other features.


The premise of my paper was that the resort could not have set themselves up better to create that feel of community and increase the social aspect of people coming to the resort (on top of all of the environmental benefits of cutting out the gorse and creating a fire barrier between the gorse and the town). A good example of this off the top of my head is the joint fire pits outside the cabins. However, the people that were there didn't take advantage of these features. Perhaps it's more indicative of how people operate nowadays, but I always try to be the first guy to strike up a conversation with others.

[Brian Finn]

If you're complaining about logo bingo, you must be losing at it ... if you didn't care you wouldn't be paying attention.

I've never felt inclined to have a signature line on this board, but this one may be too good not to memorialize.

[Eric Smith]

If you're complaining about logo bingo, you must be losing at it ... if you didn't care you wouldn't be paying attention.

I've never felt inclined to have a signature line on this board, but this one may be too good not to memorialize.

Absolutely.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Ally:  your take on Cabot Links is interesting.  I like the course a lot, too, but find it odd that you'd want to travel from Ireland to Canada to play a subdued links when there are so many good ones in your backyard!

But don't forget that Cabot also has Cabot Cliffs which is somewhat different than your Irish links courses and is (arguably) more like Pebble or CP.


Cabot also has Highlands Links a short drive away and the drive is spectacular if you take the Cabot Trail.


There is local community in Inverness but that depends on what you are looking for.  If you are playing 36 a day then golf and eating dinner is probably enough.  But if you are taking it a bit more slowly there is more other stuff to do, including live music that is available almost every night through the summer, harness racing, etc.

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