Sand Valley No. 3

[Ian Mackenzie]

Why does Sand Valley need another course?


Two 18s and a par 3 course would seem to be the right mix.

Simple: Because it is 100% sold out for the summer.

[Eric Smith]

 Peter,


Certainly no offense taken to your comments.

[Eric Smith]

Why does Sand Valley need another course?


Two 18s and a par 3 course would seem to be the right mix.

Simple: Because it is 100% sold out for the summer.

 That’s right! And I couldn’t believe that they had built so many new rooms/lodges in the 6 to 7 months between my visits .. with more to come.

[Derek_Duncan]

I hope they avoid the idea of a tribute course altogether.  There are lots of talented modern architects lacking for chances to show what they can do.  We should all get more chances to forge our own reputations, instead of forging someone else's.

+1

[Ian Mackenzie]

Also wonder if/when Jim Urbina will ever get a solo shot.
He does work for Keiser at Dunes Club and (perhaps) Bandon (?) still.

[Jim Nugent]

From the outside looking in, I haven't got the foggiest how Mike operates, but his track record speaks for itself.  The way he continues to churn out winners leaves me with little doubt he's a massive part of the success....even if its as "simple" as knowing who to hire and where to build his projects..

Mike's a pioneer.  Who else imagined they could take a site far off the beaten track -- in a small town hours away from the nearest big city and a day or so travel from most US major population centers -- where the cold, rainy, windy weather is often nasty for hiking much less golf -- and turn it into a golfing mecca? 

I told a friend of mine, a free-thinker who is a marketing genius, about Bandon, but didn't indicate how it turned out.  The first word out of my friend's mouth was "disaster."  Keiser saw past all that, as he has now a number of times.   

Is Tom Doak talking about the concept for the course, or its designer(s)? 

 

[Jeff Schley]

I hope they avoid the idea of a tribute course altogether.  There are lots of talented modern architects lacking for chances to show what they can do.  We should all get more chances to forge our own reputations, instead of forging someone else's.

+1

This is a similar dilemma in other businesses where the legacy principal has such a long career, that is prevents opportunities for those who will eventually replace them, with to much latency in the cycle.  Talent outweighs experience in many professions and giving the next good or great one their first chance is all that is preventing their brilliance.

I'd love to see more young designers get more opportunities, but with the down cycle for new courses almost nil, it will have to be redesigns and renovations. 

[Dan Moore]

I had heard inklings of a modern template hole (holes that have become standards since NGLA) course.  It seem to me that SV is such a unique property that to force modern holes into that landscape just wouldn't work. I guess you could have a desert island hole, but wouldn't water be needed for so many others? Augusta 12, 13 and 15 for example.  Feels forced and not natural to the environment in my opinion.


But if they wanted to do a template course for the 6th course why not a Harry Colt template course. Swinley, Sunningdale, St Georges Hill, Portrush, County Down, Pine Valley etc. would be a natural for the site. Heathlands in the Heartland after all!!

[Derek_Duncan]

I had heard inklings of a modern template hole (holes that have become standards since NGLA) course.  It seem to me that SV is such a unique property that to force modern holes into that landscape just wouldn't work. I guess you could have a desert island hole, but wouldn't water be needed for so many others? Augusta 12, 13 and 15 for example.  Feels forced and not natural to the environment in my opinion.

Yes. When there's a great, natural piece of land -- which is still rare in modern golf -- the obligation should be to allow it to express itself, not stamp something onto it that's preconceived.


If there's another course at SV I would hope Keiser does proper vetting up front, gives strong consideration to an architect he hasn't worked with, and lets that person build the best course as they envision it. If it's Ian Andrew and Ian sees the way a natural par-68 course works -- or a course with no par listed at all -- then go for it.


We're at the point now -- and this is my opinion -- where it would be more interesting to see Tom Doak and Gil Hanse build golf on properties that aren't great or natural. Not landfills like Trinity Forest, but just average sites, maybe conversion projects like CommonGround, that are near city centers and would require more of an artistic imprimatur or authorship.

[PCCraig]

Another template or tribute course would be way too gimmicky.


I think Mammoth Dunes (and Sand Valley) are such massive courses with incredible scale, that the complex is just screaming for an old fashioned, intimate, course in the trees. Something similar to White Bear Yacht Club or Sunningdale, but built on sand. The course could be shorter (6500 yards max), have some wild greens, lots of short grass, and simple bunkering.


That would be cool.

[Kalen Braley]

Is Tom Doak talking about the concept for the course, or its designer(s)? 
 

Jim,


In the context of this thread, I don't see a difference..  The genius of the one making the final call is in knowing what you will get  BEFORE you hire them to design your course.


Kind of like a lawyer knowing the answer to all the questions in advance in the court room...even from the unfriendly witnesses they didn't get to prep...

[BHoover]

I like the idea of totally free-form, essentially natural type of golf course.

[Ian Andrew]

The course could be shorter (6500 yards max), have some wild greens, lots of short grass, and simple bunkering.
That would be cool.

It would indeed.
It would be a refreshing change of direction.

[Tom_Doak]

We're at the point now -- and this is my opinion -- where it would be more interesting to see Tom Doak and Gil Hanse build golf on properties that aren't great or natural. Not landfills like Trinity Forest, but just average sites, maybe conversion projects like CommonGround, that are near city centers and would require more of an artistic imprimatur or authorship.

Sorry, man, but I've got 4 more great sites I've done routings for (not counting Sand Valley), and I aim to see those get done.  But I'm open to other sorts of projects if the client will allow me to build something important.  The par-68 idea being discussed is one of the important ideas on my to-do list.

[Morgan Clawson]

I went to Sand Valley yesterday and heard a few tidbits:
1) The next thing built may be a punchbowl-like putting course/green similar to what they have at Bandon.
2) The architects mentioned to be in the running for the next course were Doak, DeVries and Hanse.
3) Quite a few other architects have visited the site and submitted proposals (on their own initiative).
4) Rooms are very booked-up from now into October.
5) Tee times are available, but not surprisingly, a little tight on the weekends.  I didn't have any trouble booking a Tuesday afternoon tee time the day before I played.

I was lucky enough to sit next to Chris Kaiser last fall.  I told him that I thought the site could accommodate a variety of course styles, including:
1) A course that pushed the edge and was a little wilder and more adventurous than what they have.  I was thinking along the Kingsley and Greywalls line.
2) A Pinehurst-style course on a flatter section of the property.  This could be really cool if they began to remove the "crop" pines and replace them with White Pines.  White Pines were almost entirely removed from this part of the country during the logging boom. They are the tallest tree in the Eastern US.  This would be a legacy project as the trees would not reach a significant height for many decades.  There are some of these trees that are over 150 feet tall in a Michigan park.  Pat Craig echoed this idea in an earlier post.
3) A really good 9 hole course on an interesting, but smaller slice of the property.

I really like Ian Andrew's idea of making a challenging, Pine Valley style course.  He thinks through this idea out-loud on this terrific podcast with Derek Duncan:  http://feedtheball.com/2018/03/08/episode-14-ian-andrew/
And after all, Sand Valley was envisioned as a cross between Sand Hills and Pine Valley.

It's fun to speculate on all of this.  I'm confident that Sand Valley management will make some great decisions in the next few years.

[John McCarthy]

About your idea for a course with white pines: according to Google maps, 187 miles northwest of Sand Valley is Cathedral Pines state nature area.  It is small, around 40 acres, but it may be the last unlogged area in northern Wisconsin (also survived the Pestigo fire).  The trees are immense.  There are a lot of giant cedars also (I think there is a particularly damp microclimate on that site). 


I am not sure how it would work but a course with no trees but 40 sentinel white pines would be a hoot.  Maybe we can carve a few faces in the trunks, for The First Men.

[Phil McDade]

I really like Ian Andrew's idea of making a challenging, Pine Valley style course.  He thinks through this idea out-loud on this terrific podcast with Derek Duncan:  http://feedtheball.com/2018/03/08/episode-14-ian-andrew/
And after all, Sand Valley was envisioned as a cross between Sand Hills and Pine Valley.

It's fun to speculate on all of this.  I'm confident that Sand Valley management will make some great decisions in the next few years.

I'd bet if Doak gets picked, he'll do the Pine Valley version...it's the course he mentioned when I questioned -- several years ago on one of the first threads about Sand Valley -- whether any of this could be feasible.

[Tom_Doak]

I'd bet if Doak gets picked, he'll do the Pine Valley version...it's the course he mentioned when I questioned -- several years ago on one of the first threads about Sand Valley -- whether any of this could be feasible.

Phil:


You're assuming if I got picked I could do whatever I wanted, but I don't know if that's true or not.  Maybe one day we will find out.


Pine Valley is the course Mr Keiser talked about when he first bought the property, but I've talked about it with them more than once and that's not really what they want ... I think they are afraid that building a hard course goes against their "brand".  It's not the only way to build something cool and different from what they've already built, but it's a pretty obvious possibility.

[Joel_Stewart]

Not sure if anyone knows but the actual owners of Sand Valley are Michael and Chris Keiser. Sure they make decisions with Mike Sr. but the boys are going to have input.


I've never heard any of them discuss a Pine Valley concept. Bill Coore discussed an interesting homage course with them that they did quite a bit of research on but ultimately they decided to pass on.


Besides Mike already built a Pine Valley type course in The Dunes Club.

[Tom_Doak]

I thought it would be fun to bring back this thread from not so long ago.  Apologies that the thread name will be confusing, but I can't edit that part.


Back in June, I wasn't sure at all if I would get the job, but I knew what concept was being discussed.  Fun to see who said what about it, when it wasn't the anointed idea.


I guess the other architects who were in the running were Gil and Mike, because Michael wanted to call both of them personally before the announcement became official.  The ground I'm using is different than the ground they were using [or that Jim Colton used for his design], so I guess those layouts are still possibilities for down the road.  The ground we are using is the piece that Rod Whitman and Dave Axland routed on three years ago - although I only found out about that quite recently.


And, to those of you who were pulling for other architects instead of me, I'm sorry / not sorry about that. 

[Cliff Hamm]

Since it is less yards, with costs subsequently lower, will greens fees follow suit?

[Tom_Doak]

Since it is less yards, with costs subsequently lower, will greens fees follow suit?

I doubt it.  Would you pay less to play Cypress Point or Merion because they are short?


They will certainly hope to keep all courses at the same price and hope they are equally popular in terms of play volumes.  Having different prices is a sure sign one course isn't as popular ...  which makes it even less popular.


And really, price is a function of popularity / demand, not inputs.  Inputs only factor into making the course more (or less) profitable. Price is whatever the market will support.

[Cliff Hamm]

Thanks for the response...didn't expect it...

[Peter Pallotta]

I know my own tastes, but those have never aligned well with the popular tastes (in any area), so I discount them. What's more interesting is when the tastes of highly successful arbiters of taste like the Ks suddenly do align well with mine, and when those tastes are about to become (with the Ks literally banking on it) the popular tastes.

What was the 'tipping point'? What changed? (I wonder if, in decades past, it was the same kind of tipping point/reasons.) 

Sure, part of it is the notion that 'something different' is due. And sure, Mr. K has played the best courses all over the world, and knows far more than me about the Swinleys and the Pulboroughs. 

But after years of great success with scale and sprawl and the magnificent, it sure does feel (at least a little) like a STOP sign went up, and folks saw it, and with it the embrace of a much different ethos & paradigm.

Room enough for all, I know, but you'll excuse me if I advocate for my own particular kind of taste.
     

[Jeff Schley]

I thought it would be fun to bring back this thread from not so long ago.  Apologies that the thread name will be confusing, but I can't edit that part.


Back in June, I wasn't sure at all if I would get the job, but I knew what concept was being discussed.  Fun to see who said what about it, when it wasn't the anointed idea.


I guess the other architects who were in the running were Gil and Mike, because Michael wanted to call both of them personally before the announcement became official.  The ground I'm using is different than the ground they were using [or that Jim Colton used for his design], so I guess those layouts are still possibilities for down the road.  The ground we are using is the piece that Rod Whitman and Dave Axland routed on three years ago - although I only found out about that quite recently.


And, to those of you who were pulling for other architects instead of me, I'm sorry / not sorry about that.

Good walk down memory lane to see just how accurate some of the GCA crowd was.  Now we know....... The rest of the story!