Sand Valley No. 3

[Eric Smith]

The game of the century in GCA terms seems to be being chosen to design golf courses for Mr. Keiser and sons. As developers of golf resorts they appear to be at the top of their game.


The upcoming announcement as to the designer for the 3rd course at Sand Valley is full of intrigue. I’ve been up there twice and have heard different things. Others I talk to have heard this or that. It’s anyone’s guess as far as I can tell. Or is it?


Some folks are convinced it will be Mike Devries. Others say it won’t be Gil Hanse because Mr. Keiser didn’t like the new Black Course at Streamsong. Who knows whether or not this is accurate.


I saw Jim Colton’s routing via social media and heck it looks great in 2D. I’m pulling for Jim, the ultimate underdog in this game. Will they hire the banker from Chicago? That would be something.


I’d also like to see what Tom Doak and team would conjure up in that sand. Bandon Dunes and Sand Valley have a genuine feel of connectedness yet Doak’s absence in Wisconsin was on my mind both visits.


What have you heard? Who would you like to see announced as the designer for course No. 3 at Sand Valley?

[Tom_Doak]

I've heard a lot, but if I told you everything I'd heard you probably wouldn't believe me.  One of the ideas that's been floated is really "out there", and I'm hoping that's the way they go.


It sounds like there won't be a final decision until July at the earliest.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Who is designing the 3rd course?


I for one hope it is a little more simple and a little less sandy... from photos only you understand.... not that I really care either way.

[Jim Nugent]

One of the ideas that's been floated is really "out there", and I'm hoping that's the way they go.

A joint effort between some of the top-known architects Keiser has worked with before? 

[Peter Pallotta]

I was thinking along Ally's line -- not so much who as what. You've already got 'mammoth', so you can't try to go bigger; and you've got hundreds of acres of 'sand', so you don't want another desert; and like at Gamble Sands you already have all the 'fun' a grown person can take -- so what does one build? Or more so: what does one *propose* building such that it gets Mr K's approval?
Maybe a lunatic will suggest a Garden City layout with Merion aesthetics and Oakmont greens on no more than 140 acres -- and make it the resort's *private* course...like, *very* private (and really expensive)...with its own, small separate clubhouse with 10 Pine Valley type rooms upstairs for members' overnight stays
 

[Daryl David]

Who is designing the 3rd course?

I think they are saying the third is the Sandbox par 3 course which was C&C.

[corey miller]

I think it would be cool if Mr. Keiser, a clear student of architecture did the course himself, perhaps with some editing by one of the people he has used previously. 

[CJames]

Whomever is chosen, and whatever the concept, as an unabashed Keiser project enthusiast I am excited to learn of the upcoming designee and I have absolute conviction that the final product will, yet again, prove an artistic and commercial success.  But my personal preference, based on my limited awareness and experience, would be to see Mike DeVries win the contract.  Obviously another Tom Doak design would, prima facie, be wholly warranted and unsurprising; it seems Tara Iti has further solidified Mr. Doak’s stature as one of the very best architects of the past 80 years.  I just personally believe that it would be healthy and exciting to add a ‘new’ name to the Keiser masthead, and — like so many of us — I find Kingsley Club to be great, great fun and it appears that Cape Wickham is superior as well.  Having spent his formative years at Crystal Downs, Mr. DeVries has MacKenzie’s ‘13 Principles’ and Perry Maxwell’s putting green genius embedded in his DNA.  In my ideal scenario, a DeVries SV4 design, perhaps of more modest scale and greater intimacy, would be the perfect compliment to SV1-SV3.  Then I would like to see a Doak design for SV5. 

[RJ_Daley]

I have always rooted for Renaissance with TD purposely assigning Brian Schneider as the lead on the ground associate due to Schneider's Wisconsin roots and all the quality work Brian has done on the high profile Doak projects.  Mike D. is obviously also a great fit with proven track record. 

If a collaboration like "Old MacDonald" was such a success, why wouldn't Keiser go back to that concept with an all-star line-up?
Maybe the Oliphant team of Craig H. and Greg R. and others would be turned loose to brainstorm something. 

I'm thinking that the remaining land that the other courses haven't exhausted will present the more creative  challenge.  Yes, it is mostly all sand and pine, but the topo and corridors may be the leftovers. 

Good Luck.

[Scott Weersing]

Why does Sand Valley need another course?


Two 18s and a par 3 course would seem to be the right mix.


I would probably say the third course would be something that is not needed but something Kaiser wanted. How about a reversible 18?


I like the idea of replica course also. We have Old Macdonald already. So what designer should have a tribute course? A Tillinghast tribute? A W. Flynn tribute? A George Thomas tribute? A Mackenzie tribute?

[Joe Hancock]

I like the idea of replica course also. We have Old Macdonald already. So what designer should have a tribute course? A Tillinghast tribute? A W. Flynn tribute? A George Thomas tribute? A Mackenzie tribute?

If this is indeed a good idea, then I would think, being in Wisconsin, that a Langford/ Moreau tribute would be most appropriate.

[Tom_Doak]

If this is indeed a good idea, then I would think, being in Wisconsin, that a Langford/ Moreau tribute would be most appropriate.

That would be like building a Seth Raynor replica course on Long Island.  Why bother, unless your goal was explicitly to steal business from your competitors?  The real thing is all around you.


I hope they avoid the idea of a tribute course altogether.  There are lots of talented modern architects lacking for chances to show what they can do.  We should all get more chances to forge our own reputations, instead of forging someone else's.

[Peter Pallotta]

If I was a businessman, I would very much envy and vigorously applaud Mr K's accomplishments; and if tomorrow I found myself at a charity event/fundraiser, I would gladly, humbly and with genuine appreciation shake his hand for his many and varied philanthropic efforts. But since we're here on a discussion board dedicated to great golf course architecture I'll ask this instead:

Doesn't *anyone* find it even slightly strange or vaguely unsettling or somewhat sad that a *developer's* name continues to feature so prominently in these kinds of discussions, or that a developer is such a dominant force in terms of what kind of courses get built? Doesn't it seem that something is more than a little amiss when, having several 'generational' type architects at his disposal, a developer gets praised not because he gives these great talents free rein, but because he very firmly reins them in instead?

Have we all become such a corporatized and compromised and conservative lot that we praise the money man instead of the talent? the financially 'successful' project instead of the creatively great one? the art of the deal instead of the art itself? 

Can anyone name me the 'developer' of NGLA? of Pine Valley? The Old Course? Prairie Dunes? Etc etc etc etc. And a course like Sand Hills, where many *can* name the developer, does anyone think he had anywhere close to the same level of input and influence as Mr K routinely does?

Ignoring for a while what the top 100 lists (heavily shaped/influenced by the same developer and by the same corporate dynamics/ethos) suggest about the quality of the work: can this so dominant a role for a developer really be a good thing when it comes to the creation of great gca?

[Andrew Buck]

Did the developer reign in Mammoth Dunes?
Wasn't Crump the developer of Pine Valley?

[Peter Pallotta]

Andrew - by 'rein in' I certainly didn't mean that Mr K asks for *smaller* courses, on *less* land. But, to use your example: by his own admission, DMK 'strayed away' from the clearly preferred model (artistically speaking), until he saw the error of his ways (professionally speaking) and returned to the fold.  (I have no doubt that MD will be a highly successful venture.) And yes, Mr Crump developed PV, but he also spent years there as a passionate and devoted (lead) architect -- and it was as an 'architect' that he left no stone un-turned in his pursuit of greatness as he himself understood it. 
Again, this is not about Mr K as a person or about architects as professionals or about SV as a highly enjoyable destination course; it's about why & how what is getting built is getting built. 
P   

[Ian Andrew]

Can anyone name me the 'developer' of NGLA? of Pine Valley? The Old Course? Prairie Dunes? Etc etc etc etc. And a course like Sand Hills, where many *can* name the developer, does anyone think he had anywhere close to the same level of input and influence as Mr K routinely does?

I can name three of four without looking them up.
... The Old Course has me stumped :  )
Peter this is not a new phenomenon.

[Peter Pallotta]

Ian, you know that temperamentally (and because I'm not, I don't think, a total fool) I would tend to defer to your opinion. But while my playing experience is limited, my reading and thinking is not so limited; and I can't quite bring myself to agree with you that this degree & level of a producer's "vision' has ever been so widely and consistently imposed upon so fine a collection of architectural talent. Of course, it goes without saying that you might be right and that I'm dead wrong -- but for goodness sake, that we can go months and years without anyone even *asking the question* (on a discussion board no less!) about the strictly architectural pros-cons of this approach does take me aback. But maybe I'm just stating the obvious, like a country bumpkin who believes he's the only one who realizes that the emperor has no clothes while in fact all the city sophisticates knew it all along, but just kept quiet. 

[Ian Andrew]

Peter,


I re-read your question - realised I completely missed your point.
My apologies ... I agree with what you said.


I think that makes me the fool   :  )


Still working on the developer of The Old Course ... might be dutch  :  )

[Sean_A]

Pietro

Your many posts surrounding the concept of a renaissance in design gives me the strong impression you are not entirely happy with the general style(s) of the Keiser courses.  While I can see your PoV, I think two things should be kept firmly at the front of the discussion.  One, the courses may not have been built at all without Keiser...which would be a huge loss to golf imo.  Two, the renaissance in golf has essentially placed design on the top shelf of golf discussion in North America and perhaps other places such as Oz.  I know from my perspective, the idea of several resorts popping up around the world with walking golf on sandy sites harping back to 1920s/30s design, which has also had an incredible impact on redesign was unthinkable in 1990. We may now have a bit of a backlash to the similarities of these designs (I personally think in the main it is down to sand treatment which is the least of the issues which could pop up), but we shouldn't soon forget what has been accomplished and actually how far we still need to go in terms of properly restoring old gems.

Ciao   

[Eric Smith]

Over breakfast one morning I was talking to a couple of staffers and they commented about Michael Keiser (the son) and his love of and dedication to the SV project. Apparently he slept in a tent onsite during the early days of the development. So perhaps he’s got a bit of Ol’ Crump in him.

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean, Eric - while it might not seem so, I'm quite happy to be disagreed with and to learn - that's what tossing around ideas is all about.  I may be voicing (unconsciously) some kind of backlash while not seeing other benefits. But, no, there is nothing I've seen or read about SV or MD that has me at all interested in playing those courses. (No loss to them at all, I know). Benefits of the renaissance there have surely been, but I think that, as in the movie business, success doesn't necessarily breed success (at least in terms of the pure art-craft)...and when the producer-driven 'sequels' start popping up I lose interest fast.
The sad part is that my internet friend Eric S (who i hope I haven't offended) will be there because he really loves/values the place -- and I'll miss an opportunity to meet and play with him.

Peter
PS - I've heard from more than one source that Mike Jr is a very fine fellow and a committed professional, and I can't possibly disagree; but, for me, I'd rather have the *architect* sleeping in a tent on site rather than the developer.   

[Joe Hancock]

If this is indeed a good idea, then I would think, being in Wisconsin, that a Langford/ Moreau tribute would be most appropriate.

That would be like building a Seth Raynor replica course on Long Island.  Why bother, unless your goal was explicitly to steal business from your competitors?  The real thing is all around you.


I hope they avoid the idea of a tribute course altogether.  There are lots of talented modern architects lacking for chances to show what they can do.  We should all get more chances to forge our own reputations, instead of forging someone else's.

For the record, I didn’t endorse the idea, nor did I advocate for stealing business from anyone.

[William_G]

Sean, Eric - while it might not seem so, I'm quite happy to be disagreed with and to learn - that's what tossing around ideas is all about.  I may be voicing (unconsciously) some kind of backlash while not seeing other benefits. But, no, there is nothing I've seen or read about SV or MD that has me at all interested in playing those courses. (No loss to them at all, I know). Benefits of the renaissance there have surely been, but I think that, as in the movie business, success doesn't necessarily breed success (at least in terms of the pure art-craft)...and when the producer-driven 'sequels' start popping up I lose interest fast.
The sad part is that my internet friend Eric S (who i hope I haven't offended) will be there because he really loves/values the place -- and I'll miss an opportunity to meet and play with him.

Peter
PS - I've heard from more than one source that Mike Jr is a very fine fellow and a committed professional, and I can't possibly disagree; but, for me, I'd rather have the *architect* sleeping in a tent on site rather than the developer.   

that's a FLW gig, he was all about the outside, an organic architect

to me the site defines the course, and as such DMK won out for #2

so it's not so much about who but what??

i'll visit this year

[Kalen Braley]

This reminds me of a story my buddies grandpa told me years ago before he passed.


He was retired and had worked in the canning business for decades.  He was one of those grizzled old guys who didn't play the work politics game and spent his career learning his craft inside and out...


So he tells me a story of a call he got from the facility manger because the canning line was down.  He agrees to go in, fiddles with the machine for a few hours, and then finally tell em what the problem is and says that''ll be $1000.  The manager says, that seems a bit high can you give me a breakdown of your costs.  He says sure the problem is this little $5 part that needed to be replaced....and $995 is for knowing which one.


Given the line had been down for hours cause no one could figure it out with dozens of workers standing around idle he smiled and gladly agreed to pay the bill.


From the outside looking in, I haven't got the foggiest how Mike operates, but his track record speaks for itself.  The way he continues to churn out winners leaves me with little doubt he's a massive part of the success....even if its as "simple" as knowing who to hire and where to build his projects..

[Sean_A]

Sean, Eric - while it might not seem so, I'm quite happy to be disagreed with and to learn - that's what tossing around ideas is all about.  I may be voicing (unconsciously) some kind of backlash while not seeing other benefits. But, no, there is nothing I've seen or read about SV or MD that has me at all interested in playing those courses. (No loss to them at all, I know). Benefits of the renaissance there have surely been, but I think that, as in the movie business, success doesn't necessarily breed success (at least in terms of the pure art-craft)...and when the producer-driven 'sequels' start popping up I lose interest fast.
The sad part is that my internet friend Eric S (who i hope I haven't offended) will be there because he really loves/values the place -- and I'll miss an opportunity to meet and play with him.

Peter
PS - I've heard from more than one source that Mike Jr is a very fine fellow and a committed professional, and I can't possibly disagree; but, for me, I'd rather have the *architect* sleeping in a tent on site rather than the developer.   

Pietro

I don't really disagree with you as it would be fantastic to see Keiser using all different types of archies and look to diversify the styles of courses he builds rather than make courses in his image (an image he had to learn from savvy archies) as it were.  But I also understand that this renaissance has mainly taken place on sand and it seems very reasonable that courses should reflect the sites.  Archies are letting fly with basically one style under the Keiser umbrella and that has effected many other projects...often for the good I might add.  I guess I am lucky in that I like the style, especially when compared with the syles I grew up with.  There are plenty of rote parkland courses to go around, so to me there isn't much harm in some sandy courses being built that may become a bit rote for those lucky enough to see more than a few resorts.  That said, the one thing which folks forget is that its the ability to travel which has made these relatively few courses accessible.  Many people cannot hop on planes so they are likely very grateful for the Keiser style renaissance resorts popping up in various locations. If they are lucky one is doable every few years.

Oddly, most of the courses don't really attract me either other than on a base level of "it would be nice to play".  Not because they are similar sandy courses because I am sure that at least for a few plays there are enough differences to satisfy, but because they are resorts aimed at keeping the golfer on site.  I have little desire to spend multiple days at a golf resort looking at golfers all day and night.  Still, a few of these courses (Old Mac and The Loop) really intrigue me and I guess it would be silly not to play the others while nearby.

Ciao