Good greens, bad pins...

[Mike_Young]

Mike - at what point is it incumbent on the player to control his approach so as to retain control of his putt?

Jim,I'm thinking the strategy related to the various pin positions on a green would relay to the player the type of approach best suited for the position.  BUT IMHO good pin positions could be played by a good player if he executes the proper putt or chip no matter where his approach ends on the putting surface.  As an example..let's say one has a left back pin position that slopes 3 percent toward the front and is surrounded by a swale.  Another has the same three percent surrounded by a swale but the edge of the green has a "ski slope" concave edge that falls into the three percent pin position.  The first description allows a good player to perform the proper shot to stop the ball close to the pin.   The second eliminates the talent factor of all players, good and bad because the "ski slope" area" creates so much speed.  A green that comes to mind for me in trying to explain this is hole #14 at ANGC.  There are plenty of areas that are unfair pin positions on that green and yet as much contour as is in that green, a good player has a chance to all of the positions on that green.

[Mike_Young]

This is not to say there are never bad pins but I am firmly outside the camp that thinks the player should be able to putt it close to every pin no matter where they are on the green.

Well maybe we disagree.  I think the possibility has to exist for the perfect putt to place the player near the hole.  It might be ever so slight but it has to be there.  Otherwise gravity has taken over talent.  Do you think every fairway needs to be where the perfect tee shot is in the fairway.  If a fairway has a severe slope from left to right with a pond on the right side, is it fair for all drives that are driven  on the far left side to fall into the pond due to gravity?   I say no....and I see pin positions the same way. 

[Thomas Dai]

Bad pin or overly fast modern day green-speeds?
atb

[Sean_A]

This is not to say there are never bad pins but I am firmly outside the camp that thinks the player should be able to putt it close to every pin no matter where they are on the green.

Well maybe we disagree.  I think the possibility has to exist for the perfect putt to place the player near the hole.  It might be ever so slight but it has to be there.  Otherwise gravity has taken over talent.  Do you think every fairway needs to be where the perfect tee shot is in the fairway.  If a fairway has a severe slope from left to right with a pond on the right side, is it fair for all drives that are driven  on the far left side to fall into the pond due to gravity?   I say no....and I see pin positions the same way.

This is an interesting take.  I certainly think that there are times when its ok if a player cannot putt close to the hole, but I wouldn't want to see a lot of this style of architecture/maintenance employed as it gets old watching putts run 20 feet long.  My first thought would be how fast are the greens. If the greens are running more than 10ish then the problem may be easily solved.  Gravity is an extremely important aspect of game and I dislike the current trend of stimp number over gravity. It is quite clear that if greens are allowed to be slopey they can be all really good players can handle at stimp under 10.   


Bottom line...I give no special status as to what could happen to the ball because a guy is holding a putter rather than any other club.  I just don't want to see a course set up become tiresome rather than fun.


Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

This is not to say there are never bad pins but I am firmly outside the camp that thinks the player should be able to putt it close to every pin no matter where they are on the green.

Well maybe we disagree.  I think the possibility has to exist for the perfect putt to place the player near the hole.  It might be ever so slight but it has to be there.  Otherwise gravity has taken over talent.  Do you think every fairway needs to be where the perfect tee shot is in the fairway.  If a fairway has a severe slope from left to right with a pond on the right side, is it fair for all drives that are driven  on the far left side to fall into the pond due to gravity?   I say no....and I see pin positions the same way.

This is an interesting take.  I certainly think that there are times when its ok if a player cannot putt close to the hole, but I wouldn't want to see a lot of this style of architecture/maintenance employed as it gets old watching putts run 20 feet long.  My first thought would be how fast are the greens. If the greens are running more than 10ish then the problem may be easily solved.  Gravity is an extremely important aspect of game and I dislike the current trend of stimp number over gravity. It is quite clear that if greens are allowed to be slopey they can be all really good players can handle at stimp under 10.   


Bottom line...I give no special status as to what could happen to the ball because a guy is holding a putter rather than any other club.  I just don't want to see a course set up become tiresome rather than fun.


Ciao

From a personal point of view, I 100% agree with Mike on this. A pin position should be put where it is possible to stop a ball.


I’ve designed a few greens that are right on the edge with regards to internal contour and could be made to look silly with excessive speeds. So if one variable is controlled (speed), it’s pretty galling to see stupid pin placement add in another variable that can make the greens play not as intended. I mean, who puts a pin three feet away from the bottom of a three foot high ridge? Common sense is required.

[Mike_Young]

I agree that green speed is a HUGE factor in losing pin positions on many classic courses.  My thoughts are based on fair green speeds for the green.  BUT I'm also talking about when this site gets all carried away with "new talent" and how they use big contour and slopes etc and how those things create a temporary buzz.  Ask yourself this, if the modern automobile with the modern tire and engine is capable of handling high speeds then we build highways that allow for such.  If someone decides they want to post a 35 MPH speed limit on such a highway, do you think people will just slow down? No...not until they have seen a few tickets...Maybe I just see this entire thing differently and don't get all of this contour talent of the day.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Mike,


What are you campaigning against with this thread?


Stupid pin placement (agree) or internal contour (only agree if you can’t get near a pin with a putt when sensibly placed)?

[JESII]

Using ANGC as the test, can the player that doesn’t clear the false front on 14 putt it close to the typical Sunday pin that’s just beyond it? The commentators seem to think not, but you tell me.


How about 16? If I’ve missed pin high right, on the green, to the standard Sunday pin...those guys all seem to putt it 6 - 10 feet by...obviously speeds are up...does that make it a bad pin?


#5 must have several of these scenarios as well...#2 from the left wing to the right maybe?


My point is simply that if you tell me I’ve got to be able to putt the ball stone dead from any point on the green to any other point on the green you’ve gone a really long way towards neutering the game...

[Mike_Young]

Mike,


What are you campaigning against with this thread?


Stupid pin placement (agree) or internal contour (only agree if you can’t get near a pin with a putt when sensibly placed)?

Ally,I probably got carried away but my main gripe is SDs trying to prove their course is more difficult by putting pins in illegitimate locations.  But then I got carried away because it flusters me that so many equate over done contour for the sake of contour with good greens.

[Mike_Young]

Using ANGC as the test, can the player that doesn’t clear the false front on 14 putt it close to the typical Sunday pin that’s just beyond it? The commentators seem to think not, but you tell me.IMHO I think those greens can allow a very good player to putt the ball within 8 feet of the hole even at Masters speeds.  So I think they are ok.  ANGC never puts pins in transition areas.  My big gripe is pins in transition areas.


How about 16? If I’ve missed pin high right, on the green, to the standard Sunday pin...those guys all seem to putt it 6 - 10 feet by...obviously speeds are up...does that make it a bad pin? I don't think so.


#5 must have several of these scenarios as well...#2 from the left wing to the right maybe?  I agree but the perfect putt by the best in the world will work...the pins are not in transition areas...


My point is simply that if you tell me I’ve got to be able to putt the ball stone dead from any point on the green to any other point on the green you’ve gone a really long way towards neutering the game...  I'm not telling you that.  I actually agree with you there.  6 to 8 ft around the hole for stopping a putt is good by me for tournament conditions but that should be determined by skill.  My gripe is when gravity does not allow for skill to prevail.

[Kalen Braley]

I think Mike Y is right on the money with his general assessments in this thread.


In my view, it likely comes down to one of two SlapDick variants...the one-up-manship guy who feels like he has to prove himself, or the who cares/incompetent guy just trying to earn a measly paycheck...


Either way, its poopy all around...

[Bob Montle]

I think Mike Y is right on the money with his general assessments in this thread.


In my view, it likely comes down to one of two SlapDick variants...the one-up-manship guy who feels like he has to prove himself, or the who cares/incompetent guy just trying to earn a measly paycheck...


Either way, its poopy all around...

+1

[Tom_Doak]

How effective is this software:?

http://theaposition.com/jamesamcafee/golf/484/theresbetterwaytosetpinlocations

I know a club in my area uses this or something like it.

I'm not sure if it's the same software, but the guys at Chicago Golf and Bel Air are using a program they swear by, to spread out the wear and create a reasonably balanced setup every day.  It does require a bit of user input (if a location doesn't work you can cross it off the list forevermore), but what they like is that you can do that temporarily to save hole locations for an upcoming event, or to allow an area to recover from damage.

[Tom_Doak]

This is not to say there are never bad pins but I am firmly outside the camp that thinks the player should be able to putt it close to every pin no matter where they are on the green.

Unsurprisingly, I am in Jim's camp here.  Unless you are within a few feet of the hole, why would you ever have a guarantee of getting down in two more shots?  Mike's example with the pond is silly because he added a penalty stroke to the equation .

[Mike_Young]

Ok...change the pond to a bunker...

[jeffwarne]

This is not to say there are never bad pins but I am firmly outside the camp that thinks the player should be able to putt it close to every pin no matter where they are on the green.

+1


Amazing that slavery to green speeds far in excess of design intent has allowed what were once "good pins" with strategy and slope/tilt and actual interest are now "bad pins"

[Peter Pallotta]

A question for those who would know:
Are there many 'bad pins' on any of the classic GB&I courses? And if not many 'bad pins' come to mind, is this solely because of the more moderate green speeds there?
I ask because, over the years of watching the Open, it seems that the rota greens (even those that have more contours than others) are very pinnable throughout.

[Mike_Young]

A question for those who would know:
Are there many 'bad pins' on any of the classic GB&I courses? And if not many 'bad pins' come to mind, is this solely because of the more moderate green speeds there?
I ask because, over the years of watching the Open, it seems that the rota greens (even those that have more contours than others) are very pinnable throughout.

I don't think there are as many turbo boost in GB&I greens as we see in many of the modern classics here...JMO..

[Jim Hoak]

I'm not aware of any course where the Green Committee sets the pins.  My experience is that the Superintendent does that.  Are there examples where the GC is doing that job?

[Greg Chambers]

I'm not aware of any course where the Green Committee sets the pins.  My experience is that the Superintendent does that.  Are there examples where the GC is doing that job?

Agreed....please provide specific examples of said Slapdicks.  You’re full of anecdotes.....

[Ally Mcintosh]

A question for those who would know:
Are there many 'bad pins' on any of the classic GB&I courses? And if not many 'bad pins' come to mind, is this solely because of the more moderate green speeds there?
I ask because, over the years of watching the Open, it seems that the rota greens (even those that have more contours than others) are very pinnable throughout.

Peter,


I can’t think of a single current example on a GB&I links, even on the most undulating set of greens. What I mean by that is if the pin is placed sensibly. There are plenty of transition area pins (Mike’s main gripe) that can’t be reached. So don’t place pins in transition areas.


Some of the most severe examples are at Carne. The Hackett course has only one - a front pin on the 9th where it is sometimes near impossible to keep the ball on the green if putting from the back. The Kilmore has quite a number of pin positions that would be made a mockery of if they ever take the green speeds above 7...


Of course, there are plenty of pins on 5% slopes around many of the courses that have been “lost” because of green speeds. The whole back portion of the Eden 11th at TOC is one. So unfortunately they altered it.


So whilst I agree wholeheartedly with Mike’s main point, I still am firmly in the “fast greens are losing us some interesting hole locations” camp.

[Sean_A]

A question for those who would know:
Are there many 'bad pins' on any of the classic GB&I courses? And if not many 'bad pins' come to mind, is this solely because of the more moderate green speeds there?
I ask because, over the years of watching the Open, it seems that the rota greens (even those that have more contours than others) are very pinnable throughout.

Pietro


I can only think of a few examples.  For the most part, the greens are not severe enough to create many dubious situations, but green rarely hit speeds to cause problems even for the iffy greens.  One obvious example is the 4th at Sandwich.  If the hole is located on the front of the green (I have only seen it once there), putting down the slope from the middle or back is not going to offer much joy even at normal speeds.  I have no issue at all with this...its one hole and there is plenty of open space shy of the green to play short.  I am probably more lenient on the concept because I grew up on a course with very complex greens where it is easy to "degreen" putts on several holes.  There are ways to use contours to slow the ball down, but its extremely difficult to get within 5 feet if you are in the wrong spot.  In my experience, there are no courses with greens anything like this in GB&I. To me its golf...learn to play to hole locations. Where I object is when there are more than couple greens where there is no way to stop the ball anywhere (usually its simply about slope) and one must accept his fate.  More than one or two of these situations pushes the needle from fun to stupidly frustrating.


Ciao 

[Mike_Trenham]

How effective is this software:?

http://theaposition.com/jamesamcafee/golf/484/theresbetterwaytosetpinlocations

I know a club in my area uses this or something like it.

I'm not sure if it's the same software, but the guys at Chicago Golf and Bel Air are using a program they swear by, to spread out the wear and create a reasonably balanced setup every day.  It does require a bit of user input (if a location doesn't work you can cross it off the list forevermore), but what they like is that you can do that temporarily to save hole locations for an upcoming event, or to allow an area to recover from damage.

We purchased EzLocator at St Davids a few years back, it’s really liked by the members.  Since we started using it the hole locations have improved and expanded, they tend to be more out near the edges of the greens.  The pin sheets are terrific as they portray the precise shapes of the greens.  As a longtime member all I need is to see the dots to understand the locations and how challenging the day will be.  There is also an ap for your phone.


I once set the hole locations on my own for our team matches and I made two mistakes, I really felt like a SD committee member.

[Mike_Young]

I'm not aware of any course where the Green Committee sets the pins.  My experience is that the Superintendent does that.  Are there examples where the GC is doing that job?

Agreed....please provide specific examples of said Slapdicks.  You’re full of anecdotes.....

I'm not quite stupid enough to name the various Slap Dicks who do such or their clubs.  But I did call on clubs for a few years early on and there are plenty of green chairs who tell the supts what to do.  And it's not just supts.  There are plenty of architects who do what the chair or the committee wants.  So maybe the green comm or chair doesn't cut the cup but there are plenty of places where they tell the supt where they want pins. 

[Tom_Doak]

So maybe the green comm or chair doesn't cut the cup but there are plenty of places where they tell the supt where they want pins.

Oh, that's absolutely true, but I can't say I blame them.  The more I've gotten to know a few green chairmen on a personal level, the more I wonder why anyone would volunteer to absorb members' complaints 24/7.  And pin placements are one of the things members bitch about the most, so it's not hard to see why they would be tempted to micromanage.