[JESII]

Agree with that Garland...thank you.

[BHoover]

I would aspire to be a man like Ben Hogan. I think that to judge a man on the trivia being reported here is not a characteristic I would aspire to have.

Hogan may have been a grumpy old man, but he was able to get a golf ball airborne. Great golfer, but not too friendly.

[David_Tepper]

"Never confuse the art with the artist!"

[Joe Hancock]

.

[Kalen Braley]

If anything.... Hogan's legacy benefited massively from being before camera phones, twitter, non-stop coverage, etc.


No one argues he wasn't a helluva golfer, but its no justification for treating people like dirt.

[Jon Wiggett]

Kalen,


I don't think he did treat people like dirt. He just wasn't overly social and was probably inundated with strangers wanting a piece of him. Just because someone is famous does not mean they have no right to privacy. So he might not have talked to all and sundry like some but then he wasn't trying to sell himself as a product either.


He earned his money by playing golf not entertaining. Yes, he might have said thank you to the kid who handed him a soda but then maybe he was too engrossed in his thoughts whilst playing to notice who handed him the drink. But as to griping about the not being paid, he didn't order it so maybe the caddy who ordered it should have paid. I am surprised that the soda was not free to players anyway.


Does asking a player why he has done something for 16 years and they can't find an answer make Hogan a bad person? No, if the guy doesn't know why he does something for that length of time then he probably doesn't have much else to say either.


And maybe Johnny Miller might have asked if it was okay to interrupt Hogan's meal rather than just sticking his hand in Hogan's face. You cannot believe Miller didn't know of Hogan's reputation.


A lot of people having a dig at someone who did more for the game of golf than they ever will. SAD

[Bob Montle]

I would aspire to be a man like Ben Hogan. I think that to judge a man on the trivia being reported here is not a characteristic I would aspire to have.

+1

[Cliff Hamm]

Jon...Does it really matter who handed him the soda? Should you say thank you no matter what?


As to payment Mr. Hogan asked his caddie to get him a soda. Call it gripping if you like, I was just astounded by the lack of common courtesy.


Am I taking a dig at Mr. Hogan? Those are your words not mine.  I am just relating a story from 50 some years ago.  But it left an impression. As I stated I knew nothing about Ben Hogan before this encounter. I subsequently read that it fit in perfectly with his reputation.  I frankly don’t see the need to defend his indefensible behavior.

[Pat Burke]

Sounds like if Ben was a good player at your club, he'd be considered a crusty old bastard.


To the victor goes the spoils

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon...Does it really matter who handed him the soda? Should you say thank you no matter what?


I agree and said that but maybe there was a reason why he didn't which is what I also said


As to payment Mr. Hogan asked his caddie to get him a soda. Call it gripping if you like, I was just astounded by the lack of common courtesy.



But that is not what you said in your previous post you said '[font=]Mr. Hogan's caddy, whom I knew, asked me to get Hogan a soda from the half way house.  Ran over, got the soda and handed it to Mr Hogan.  Not only did he not offer to pay me for it, he did not even have the courtesy to say thank you.' Mr. Hogan's caddie NOT Mr. Hogan.[/font]

Am I taking a dig at Mr. Hogan? Those are your words not mine.  I am just relating a story from 50 some years ago.  But it left an impression. As I stated I knew nothing about Ben Hogan before this encounter. I subsequently read that it fit in perfectly with his reputation.  I frankly don’t see the need to defend his indefensible behavior.

I would suggest calling his behaviour 'indefensible' is very much having a dig at him.


Just out of interest how much did you pay for the soda?

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

Maybe Hogan would have been more jovial if he played in a time where you could live on endorsement contracts, treated like kings at tournaments vs. not being able to enter the clubhouse and paying for your range balls, etc. He was a hardened by his upbringing, the Great Depression and being an under dog for a good part of his life.

Or maybe he'd be even more of a jerk. Like Bubba Watson.

[George Pazin]

I’m sure this has been discussed before, but I saw this story from Ken Venturi posted again recently. I assume it’s meant to be funny, but Hogan comes across as a jerk in my opinion. Was he really this miserable?


__KEN VENTURI, ON TAKING GARY MCCORD
TO MEET BEN HOGAN__ May 1994
I always go over to see Ben at Shady Oaks when we do Colonial. A few years ago, Frank Chirkinian [CBS producer] said, "Maybe we'll join you. I'll bring Gary over, too."
Frank introduced Gary to Ben, and they sat down with us. Ben never rushes anything. Ben takes his time.So after a while, Hogan looked across at Gary and said, "What did you say your name was?" Gary said, "My name is Gary McCord."
A few minutes later, Hogan asked him, "What do you do?"
"I work for CBS, and I'm a pro, and I'm on the tour."
"Good."
A couple of minutes more go by, and Hogan says, "How long have you been on tour?"
And Gary says, "I've been on tour 16 years."
Hogan's next question was, "What have you won?"
Gary says, "I haven't won anything."
"Umph. Sixteen years, haven't won anything."
Went back talking to Frank and me, and then out of a clear-blue sky Ben stops, turns and looks straight at McCord and says, "What the hell are you doing on tour?"
McCord says, "I don't know."
McCord never said another word. When Gary and Frank left, I stayed with Ben a little bit just to talk. About five minutes went by, and he turned to me again and said, "What the hell was his name?"

I suspect if McCord's answer had been different, maybe something along the lines of "busting my butt, trying to win", Hogan may have had a different reaction. It took Ben himself awhile to win, so he was probably looking to hear something like that.


Of course, you can't really blame McCord for being intimidated. But even so...


I wouldn't judge Hogan based on this. Or pretty much anything else. You have to really know someone to give a credible evaluation, you certainly can't do it from anecdotes.

[Garland Bayley]

If anything.... Hogan's legacy benefited massively from being before camera phones, twitter, non-stop coverage, etc.


No one argues he wasn't a helluva golfer, but its no justification for treating people like dirt.

Kalen,

Methinks you know not of what you speak.

[George Pazin]

Jon...Does it really matter who handed him the soda? Should you say thank you no matter what?


As to payment Mr. Hogan asked his caddie to get him a soda. Call it gripping if you like, I was just astounded by the lack of common courtesy.


Am I taking a dig at Mr. Hogan? Those are your words not mine.  I am just relating a story from 50 some years ago.  But it left an impression. As I stated I knew nothing about Ben Hogan before this encounter. I subsequently read that it fit in perfectly with his reputation.  I frankly don’t see the need to defend his indefensible behavior.

It's a story, indeed. But I'm curious - do you not think that somewhere in your life, no one has a story like this about you? I work really really hard at treating everyone well, no matter the position, or whether or not he can do me a favor, or whatever, but I'm sure there are times I've spaced out and forgotten common courtesy, particularly if I were involved in something that required a lot of focus and attention. That's what makes us humans, not robots. We all forget things, and make mistakes, particularly when we are at one end of the age spectrum or another, very young or fairly old. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


It's funny, I just had an opportunity to play a special course the other day. Every single time my caddy handed me a club, I said thank you, and every single time he said, you're welcome. At one point, late in the round, I thought to myself, he doesn't need to say that to me. But he did, and it left an impression (quite positive, obviously). But I wonder if either party had forgotten just once, in a hundred exchanges, would the other have felt differently? I wouldn't have, I'd assume it was a simple oversight, and I'd hope he would extend me the same courtesy.


But my wife sure doesn't...

[Cliff Hamm]

 Of course we all make mistakes. Of course we are less than courteous at times.   But it is the totality of your actions that make a difference.  My one interaction with Mr. Hogan is simply that, one interaction, but it appears that he was known for not treating people especially well.


 This soda was likely a quarter.



 

[Joe Zucker]

I don't think any one of these stories is enough to judge a person, but the fact that there are so many does seem to say something about how Hogan lived.  Data is not the plural of anecdote, but enough of these similar stories give a decent idea of how he acted.  Does this mean he was necessarily a bad person? No.  He had a tough life outside of golf and it surely shaped his personality.


For those saying we can't judge Hogan on these stories, does that mean we can't give Arnie credit for the benevolence he showed for decades?  We always hear touching stories on the letters he returned and the autographs he signed.  If we are going to admire Palmer due to these stories it's hard not to judge Hogan for his stories.

[Peter Pallotta]

It's easy to confuse politeness with goodness, and sociability with loyalty, and openess with honesty. From reading about his life, I don't think Mr. Hogan was a polite, social or open person; but I do think he was a good, honest, and loyal man. An introvert in an extroverted world, and saddled with unspeakably painful memories and the bitter taste of poverty. I like to think that he found his peace at last.

[Cliff Hamm]

I don't believe anyone has called Hogan a 'bad' person - rude and discourteous, yes, but that does not make one a 'bad' person.  As to his life, as is true for all of us, that might explain but doesn't excuse.

[jeffwarne]

Reading the content linked in the original post, it's not hard to imagine that Hogan would have difficulty wrapping his head around someone like McCord playing on Tour for 16 years and never winning anything. Gary McCord was fortunate to come along at a time that afforded middling pros to collect enough paychecks to build a career in golf. Had he played in Hogan's era, he'd have had to find another job.

Yet somehow Hogan gives himself a pass for turning pro in 1930 and finally winning in 1940, in an era when maybe 10-20 guys could win.
I'd say he's the one who would've been looking for another job if he were attempting to play the tour today.


Men like Hogan were hardened by the depression and the struggles.
We can admire their work ethic, perseverance and eventual success.
But very doubtful with today's depth he would've lasted very long as a player.
and I see no need to celebrate their rudeness, no matter how hard they worked to get where they were, or the circumstances they faced.


Having 125 guys exempt in the 1980's is hardly socialism, and compared to other Major league sports where 500-600 players annually know they have a contract for at least a year, it's downright cut throat.
Gary MCCord would've won 10 times in the 1930's-while another player was duck hooking his way around waiting to "dig it out of the dirt" and finally win 10 years later-but obviously comparing eras is a fool's errand.

[Chris Mavros]

Thanks for posting, I enjoyed the interview.  Sampson's book touches on a lot of what's been discussed in here and adds good perspective to it.  Hogan was certainly a prolific figure for his talent, which was borne from a constant grind amidst a lifetime of personal, health and financial struggles.  While he wasn't the most charismatic or outgoing, I suppose we all weigh that on his legacy differently.  For me, Hogan has always been an inspiration and a cornerstone of the aura and mystique of the game. 

[Tom_Doak]

Somewhere in my archives, I have a letter from Ben Hogan.  When GOLF Magazine put me in charge of their course rankings, I wrote to him to ask if he would participate.  And I got a letter back affirming that he could not possibly do that. 😀  And so I've got a personal letter from Ben Hogan.


Gerald Ford, too!  That was how I learned that Presidents don't require postage; they just sign their name on the envelope and the Postal Service delivers.  Our mailman explained that to me when he brought the letter to our door; he had never delivered one before!

[Kalen Braley]

Reading the content linked in the original post, it's not hard to imagine that Hogan would have difficulty wrapping his head around someone like McCord playing on Tour for 16 years and never winning anything. Gary McCord was fortunate to come along at a time that afforded middling pros to collect enough paychecks to build a career in golf. Had he played in Hogan's era, he'd have had to find another job.

Yet somehow Hogan gives himself a pass for turning pro in 1930 and finally winning in 1940, in an era when maybe 10-20 guys could win.
I'd say he's the one who would've been looking for another job if he were attempting to play the tour today.


Men like Hogan were hardened by the depression and the struggles.
We can admire their work ethic, perseverance and eventual success.
But very doubtful with today's depth he would've lasted very long as a player.
and I see no need to celebrate their rudeness, no matter how hard they worked to get where they were, or the circumstances they faced.


Having 125 guys exempt in the 1980's is hardly socialism, and compared to other Major league sports where 500-600 players annually know they have a contract for at least a year, it's downright cut throat.
Gary MCCord would've won 10 times in the 1930's-while another player was duck hooking his way around waiting to "dig it out of the dirt" and finally win 10 years later-but obviously comparing eras is a fool's errand.

Jeff,


Excellent ...and very well said.


Anyone who thinks its easy to make the tour and just make cuts and collect checks is in denial.


Players in nearly every other sport get guaranteed money in the millions of dollars per year, yet making 50th place checks to grind to keep a card is somehow less than. 

[JMEvensky]

Read Kris Tschetter's book.  An interesting and different perspective.

+1


That book was not what I expected.

[Garland Bayley]

Reading the content linked in the original post, it's not hard to imagine that Hogan would have difficulty wrapping his head around someone like McCord playing on Tour for 16 years and never winning anything. Gary McCord was fortunate to come along at a time that afforded middling pros to collect enough paychecks to build a career in golf. Had he played in Hogan's era, he'd have had to find another job.

Yet somehow Hogan gives himself a pass for turning pro in 1930 and finally winning in 1940, in an era when maybe 10-20 guys could win.
I'd say he's the one who would've been looking for another job if he were attempting to play the tour today.


Men like Hogan were hardened by the depression and the struggles.
We can admire their work ethic, perseverance and eventual success.
But very doubtful with today's depth he would've lasted very long as a player.
and I see no need to celebrate their rudeness, no matter how hard they worked to get where they were, or the circumstances they faced.


Having 125 guys exempt in the 1980's is hardly socialism, and compared to other Major league sports where 500-600 players annually know they have a contract for at least a year, it's downright cut throat.
Gary MCCord would've won 10 times in the 1930's-while another player was duck hooking his way around waiting to "dig it out of the dirt" and finally win 10 years later-but obviously comparing eras is a fool's errand.

IMNSHO this has to be about the worst thing you have posted here. Has someone hacked your account?

[Garland Bayley]

Yet somehow Hogan gives himself a pass for turning pro in 1930 and finally winning in 1940, in an era when maybe 10-20 guys could win.
Hogan did not compete on tour for those 10 years. My recollection is that he laid off at least 6 of those years to work on his game.
I'd say he's the one who would've been looking for another job if he were attempting to play the tour today.
This is nonsense. At 47 he was tied for the lead on the 71st hole of the US Open at Cherry hills before spinning his wedge back off of the green into the water.


Men like Hogan were hardened by the depression and the struggles.
We can admire their work ethic, perseverance and eventual success.
But very doubtful with today's depth he would've lasted very long as a player.
and I see no need to celebrate their rudeness,
I think you are discussing perceived rudeness. Is it impolite to decline to watch Faldo hit balls when Faldo asked? Or, was it impolite of Faldo to try to impose on Ben Hogan to watch him hit balls while he was a guest of Ben at Ben's club while declining to play Ben's equipment.
no matter how hard they worked to get where they were, or the circumstances they faced.


Having 125 guys exempt in the 1980's is hardly socialism, and compared to other Major league sports where 500-600 players annually know they have a contract for at least a year, it's downright cut throat.
Gary MCCord would've won 10 times in the 1930's
Here is where you really go off the rails. If you read McCord's book, you will find that he readily admits he didn't belong on tour, that he wasn't good enough to win on tour, and that leaving the tour to go into broadcasting was about the best thing that ever happened to him.

IMO a player of McCord's talents would not have qualified for the 1960 Open (He never qualified for an Open) let alone play himself into the lead at the 70th hole with a physical disability in his legs.
-while another player was duck hooking his way around waiting to "dig it out of the dirt" and finally win 10 years later-but obviously comparing eras is a fool's errand.
in this case, you don't have to compare eras, Gary McCord was a flop, period!

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