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Ryan Coles

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Re: Studying architecture, the best 10 courses to study in the USA
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2018, 05:30:52 AM »
Thank you for the various lists and nominations.
Interesting that the courses mentioned above, with a couple of exceptions, are generally very well known or pretty well known names whereas on the thread about courses to study in the U.K. there were quite a few “under and radar” and “not the usual suspect” highlighted.
Atb

In the U.K. you can actually play the courses you are suggesting. In the U.S., you only hope to play these courses you know about, so how can you compare them to what you actually can play?

Furthermore, in the U.K. you often find such courses 10 to 15 miles apart in a small country. In the U.S. such a situation exists rarely, such as NGLA, Shinnecock, and Sebonack, but who can play those? Not, me. And, the U.S. is a huge country so getting around to candidate courses is much more difficult.


Garland,


You could have played all those courses but you chose to act in ways that prevent it. Really, the only reason a white guy our age is shut out of any opportunity is because he closed and locked the door himself.


John


Do you mean in the sense that the golfer should have acquired the requisite wealth and status by that age?, or simply that the private clubs are not such a tough ticket if you ask nicely / behave properly in the correct circles?

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Studying architecture, the best 10 courses to study in the USA
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2018, 07:52:16 AM »
I'm saying that we choose where we can play by the choices we make. When I started playing golf at eight years old we had a range next to the pool. After golf with my buddies I chose the pool. How my life may had been different had I chosen the range. My pro at the time Dick Grout could have introduced me to his brother Jack Grout and today I'd be more like Fred Ridley than Fred Willard. Some kids choose the pool.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Studying architecture, the best 10 courses to study in the USA
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2018, 08:12:52 AM »
Ryan,

There's a money component too.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Terry Lavin

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Re: Studying architecture, the best 10 courses to study in the USA
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2018, 08:23:49 AM »
I’ll only list courses, in no particular order) that I’ve played that have supplied me with some understanding of gca.


1. Chicago Golf Club
2  Sand Hills
3. Pacific Dunes
4. Oakmont
5. Prairie Dunes
6. TPC Sawgrass
7. LACC North
8. Olympia Fields North
9. Cypress Point
10.Old Macdonald
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 08:26:30 AM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tom Ferrell

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Re: Studying architecture, the best 10 courses to study in the USA
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2018, 03:05:29 PM »
I'm gonna add a slight twist.  You do need to study most of the courses already mentioned here, and I've been fortunate enough to do that.  But sometimes the history/mythology/setting/iconography/etc of the famed courses obscures a look at the craft of architecture itself.


I have told many people that if they want to look at what is possible through great golf design, go have a look at CommonGround, near Denver.  CommonGround occupies a site that has little to offer.  But because of the skilled approach applied by the Renaissance team, the golf course there is interesting, strategic and engaging.  There are nods to classic templates, angles and carry lines aplenty, enough internal contour on the greens to keep things interesting, visual elements to interact with the site - all the things that make GCA great.


It's sometimes easier to see great architecture when that is the only real feature of a course (that's a rare situation as well). 


And yes, there are redeeming qualities to the CommonGround site, but the architecture is what makes that place work.

Ian Andrew

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Re: Studying architecture, the best 10 courses to study in the USA
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2018, 10:39:11 PM »
I believe you pick the courses to teach specific lessons. So in that spirit, this is the 10 essential American courses I would recommend a young architect go see. There are other great places with certain aspects and holes that are also very valuable, but these are the ones that made the biggest impact on me …
 
1. National Golf links of America – understanding the strategies of the great holes
 
I really doubt that there are any new architectural strategies or ideas that haven’t already been tried in one form or another. I think it is far more important to understand how the strategy of a great hole works rather than to try to invent a new strategy. Charles Blair MacDonald studied the great holes of Europe before creating his own adaptations of them at the National Golf Links of America. The lesson that MacDonald provides is we must first understand what makes great golf holes, before we begin to design our own. MacDonald’s adaptations are some of the finest holes in the world; many of them are far superior to the original.
 
2. Augusta National – adaptable to all conditions and players
 

The beauty of Augusta National is how well it adapts to the various skills of players. The golf course offers ample room and phenomenal playability in its daily set-up. There’s not a lot of bunkers and the corridors are wide and comfortable. But firm up the greens and get them running fast and the course becomes very hard to manage. Play must be far more positional and the miss is magnified ten-fold in the Masters set-up. It’s the adaptability of the design that is key.
 
3. Pine Valley – difficult does not mean length
 
Pine Valley proves that difficulty and length are not synonymous. The course is still relatively short by modern standards, even has generous landing areas, yet it is one of the hardest courses in the world. The difficulty comes from the player being made to feel on the defensive all round. The course invites you to gamble, but punishes you for missing. The player finds themselves beginning to look at the consequence rather than the target. Pine Valley keeps you off balance by making many of these shots from side hill, downhill and uphill stances all day requiring you manufacture shots under pressure. On occasion George Crump takes the pressure up even more demanding you hit a great shot since he has provided no margin for error. Difficulty does not require length.
 
4. Pinehurst #2 – the difficulty of short grass
 
Whether Ross created the fall away greens and chipping areas is not that important, all that matters is what effect it has on play. Short grass can be a more effective hazard that a bunker. It may present easier options for a weaker player, but is far more daunting for a better player than a bunker. The advantage to a weaker player is they can play to their strengths; the disadvantage to a good player is they are faced with too many options. Bad decisions are often a bigger factor than poor execution. They may not need to be a severe as Pinehurst’s greens, but the effect is still the same. Pinehurst #2 is a course where you can’t possibly lose a ball and yet you still can’t shoot a good score.
 
5. Riviera – asking the player to work the ball
 
George Thomas probably combined strategy and beauty as well as any architect. He likes to reward positional play, but insisted the player work to get the ball into that position. There is no course quite like Riviera, where a player is continuously encouraged to hit either a draw or fade off the tee. Whether it is crucial use of key trees, careful placement of bunkers, slopes of the green, or even the keen use of side slopes that requires a tee shot to be shaped to remain on the fairway. They joy at Riviera is the constant flow is back and forth between fade and draw, even alternating on many holes. Thomas has created one of the last courses where the shot maker still holds the advantage over the bomber.

6. The Golf Club – variety
 
I went to The Golf Club expecting the TPC at Sawgrass, and was very surprised at how understated the golf course was. Everything on the course blended into the surrounding so much that it looked “found”. The minimalist nature of the course has had a huge impact on shaping the latest movement in golf. The additional lesson that Dye provided was the infinite variety of architecture that is possible. Pete has used traditional elements such as a pond, a creek, pot bunkers, flashed bunkers, waste bunkers, bulk headed bunkers and trees. He also used unusual ideas such as a short slope of bluegrass fronting a green, a bank of railroad ties to define the edge of a hole, native grass in play, and my favorite an old box car for a cart bridge. Imagination and humor define the early works of Pete Dye.

7. Tobacco Road - intimidation

 
The first hole is a good example of what lies ahead. The tee shot is through a very tight opening between two massive hills, which is then followed by a blind carry over the dune to the second landing area. There are few more intimidating opening holes in golf. Tobacco Road is probably the most intimidating and frustrating course you can play for the first time. While the course has plenty more width and playability that initially understood, Mike Strantz uses blind shots and very intimidating hazards throughout the round to hide that fact. The player is feels the pressure to execute every shot because Mike has emphasized the hazard rather than the target on most holes. The fun of the course is there are lots of aggressive options and chances to score once you learn the course, just don’t you dare miss!

8. Pacific Dunes – ignoring standards
 
There are many things to admire beyond the beauty of Pacific Dunes. Tom Doak resisted against the standards for length, instead opting for a golf course that was both beautiful and playable. It took guts not to ignore the conventional minimum 7,000 yards. He showed even more guts when he decided upon the unconventional placement of threes throughout the round in order to use the land the best he could. Tom recognized that the golf course would be very exposed to the wind, and so he created lots of width in the course to keep it playable in tough conditions. He didn’t worry about players having the upper hand on a windless day, but made sure it was enjoyable day to day. His use of interior bunkering to place emphasis on driving the ball in a mild wind was a clever way of keeping width and challenge at the same time. Pacific Dunes convinced me that length was far less important than all the other design elements.
 
9. Friar’s Head – contours are the key
 
Bill once said that nature presents an infinite amount of clever ideas right in the ground in front of you. Coore and Crenshaw have been clever enough to leave the ripples and rumples left in the fairway that adds a crazy stance or challenging lies for the approach. They keep the humps, bumps and hollows short around the green site to require all your imagination to solve the complicated path to the hole. Even there greens use knolls, knuckles, rolls, humps, tiers and hollows to confounding both the approach and the putt. They know that the ground contour not only adds challenge and interest to the round, but builds in an infinite variety of ways the course can play and unfold. The ground contours are the true key to the great architecture.
 
10. Prairie Dunes – a sense of place

No course blurs the line between golf course and surrounding landscape quite like Prairie Dunes. The incorporation of native grasses and plants right into the architecture allow the course to exist within a native prairie in perfect harmony. No course in America embraces the land around it quite as well as this gem.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 10:42:44 PM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Thomas Dai

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Re: Studying architecture, the best 10 courses to study in the USA
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2018, 03:09:03 AM »
Ian,
Many thanks for this very this detailed response. Your opening paragraph sums up how I was hoping this thread would evolve “..10 essential American courses I would recommend a young architect go see.”
atb


Sean_A

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Re: Studying architecture, the best 10 courses to study in the USA
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2018, 04:00:48 AM »
Ian,
Many thanks for this very this detailed response. Your opening paragraph sums up how I was hoping this thread would evolve “..10 essential American courses I would recommend a young architect go see.”
atb


+1...much depends on the people receiving the recos. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Peter Pallotta

Re: Studying architecture, the best 10 courses to study in the USA
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2018, 08:46:48 AM »
I know there are no rules and perhaps no such thing as a 'perfect' golf course, but looking at Ian's list I couldn't help trying to mash-up a few of those courses together:


If you took what Ian said about NGLA (as the foundation), and then added in an element from Pine Valley, and a few shot demands from Riviera and the contours from Friar's Head...wow

Jeff Schley

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Re: Studying architecture, the best 10 courses to study in the USA
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2018, 09:14:13 AM »
Ian,

Very thoughtful and useful feedback.  Thanks for taking the time.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Studying architecture, the best 10 courses to study in the USA
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2018, 11:48:10 PM »
An even dozen - based on architect

Pine Valley - Crump / Colt
Cypress Point or Augusta National - Mackenzie
Shinnecock - Flynn
National Golf Links of America - Macdonald
Oakmont - Fownes
Merion (East) - Wilson
Sand Hills - Coore & Crenshaw
Pinehurst (No. 2) - Ross
Fishers Island - Raynor
San Francisco - Tillinghast
Pacific Dunes - Doak
Prairie Dunes - Maxwell

Shelly Jones

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Re: Studying architecture, the best 10 courses to study in the USA
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2018, 05:34:47 PM »

While I klove LACC, I am not so sure that I would not put Riviera ahead of it (for purposes of this study) solely to study #10, one of the great risk/reward short par 4's...




George Pazin

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Re: Studying architecture, the best 10 courses to study in the USA
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2018, 04:43:54 PM »
For Oakmont, what would I learn there that I can't elsewhere? Have 5 bunkers on each side of the fairway on most holes? The green complexes are unique, but I could say that about my 10 plus others.


You have either never played Oakmont, or you completely missed the point. Admittedly, that's easy to do at Oakmont.


The green complexes aren't "unique, but like 10 plus others". They are MAYBE like one or two others. MAYBE.


What makes Oakmont special - beyond special - is that it takes land that is like land all over the country (in other words, not beach front cliffs), and it crafts an absolute masterpiece that challenges everyone, pro, bogey, and hack alike.


I'm sad that you missed that.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

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Re: Studying architecture, the best 10 courses to study in the USA
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2018, 04:49:49 PM »
John


Do you mean in the sense that the golfer should have acquired the requisite wealth and status by that age?, or simply that the private clubs are not such a tough ticket if you ask nicely / behave properly in the correct circles?


No, he means that virtually any course in the US (I will exempt ANGC from this discussion) is open to play, if you just are a reasonable, real golfer. You don't need money, you just need to be nice and interested, that opens most every door in the US (again, ANGC exempted).


And contrary to what my friend Garland says, there is NO money component, or yours truly would not have ever had the opportunities he's had.

Can't speak to the rest of the world... Hope to, someday, but can't now.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 04:51:53 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Don Mahaffey

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Re: Studying architecture, the best 10 courses to study in the USA
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2018, 06:25:59 PM »
Most of these lists are like telling a perspective doctor to only study the healthiest people. Try studying something that hasn’t already been studied 10,000 times.    Study a flat course that doesn’t feel flat. A mountain course that doesn’t feel severe.  A course built on clay that plays like it’s built in sand.   Try deciding for yourself what is good, bad, or somewhere in between.

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