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Matthew Mollica

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Several threads have got me thinking about this issue. Not least the recent narrowing of Shinnecock Hills for the 2018 US Open.


What if a golf course was just left alone. Pro players came along and played their tournament just as the course was usually presented?


Let’s say they tear it apart, and the field is all WELL under par. With a very low winning score. Would that be so bad? If so, why?


MM

"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2018, 12:29:34 AM »
Several threads have got me thinking about this issue. Not least the recent narrowing of Shinnecock Hills for the 2018 US Open.


What if a golf course was just left alone. Pro players came along and played their tournament just as the course was usually presented?


Let’s say they tear it apart, and the field is all WELL under par. With a very low winning score. Would that be so bad? If so, why?


MM


It would be great, and we'd know how good they are.
Better yet, have one set of tees.
back in the day the blues weren't that much longer than the whites, and good players simpy played the back tees-nowadays many good players play one or two sets up creating teefurcation-ironically many are aginst bifurcation, citing the fact that golf is one of the few sports where amateurs play the same equipment (which is ridiculous if they're playng a different course than experts)



"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2018, 09:28:59 AM »
It would be great, and we'd know how good they are.
+1
Atb

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2018, 10:16:54 AM »
What would be really cool, Matthew, would be to let the host superintendent set the hole locations. Not for ridiculous pins...just the most imaginative that the Tour guys aren’t really looking for.

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2018, 10:22:26 AM »
Several threads have got me thinking about this issue. Not least the recent narrowing of Shinnecock Hills for the 2018 US Open.


What if a golf course was just left alone. Pro players came along and played their tournament just as the course was usually presented?


Let’s say they tear it apart, and the field is all WELL under par. With a very low winning score. Would that be so bad? If so, why?


MM


Some of the regular PGA Tour events are manipulated to make the course EASIER for the pros -- with the exception of growing deeper rough, I suppose. But I know of at least one event where the pins are put in places to encourage birdies/avoid three putts rather than using the same more difficult pin positions that members play. They also play from the member and even occasionally the senior tees on some of the holes.


EDIT: I'm not making a judgment on that, by the way. It's just a reality. The PGA Tour thinks that the lesser rank and file tournaments need low scores and a lot of birdies to generate fan interest and excitement, for better or for worse.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 10:55:59 AM by Edward Glidewell »

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2018, 01:37:55 PM »
Then you'd basically have Web.com events, where -20 and lower happens consistently.

Joe Hellrung

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2018, 03:28:13 PM »

One of the things I enjoy the most about having a symetra tour event at my course is watching how these young ladies can just shred the course from the same tees I play.  This would be a lot of fun to see the pros go out from where I do.  Might be fun to see them play with off the rack equipment as well. 

Several threads have got me thinking about this issue. Not least the recent narrowing of Shinnecock Hills for the 2018 US Open.


What if a golf course was just left alone. Pro players came along and played their tournament just as the course was usually presented?


Let’s say they tear it apart, and the field is all WELL under par. With a very low winning score. Would that be so bad? If so, why?


MM


It would be great, and we'd know how good they are.
Better yet, have one set of tees.
back in the day the blues weren't that much longer than the whites, and good players simpy played the back tees-nowadays many good players play one or two sets up creating teefurcation-ironically many are aginst bifurcation, citing the fact that golf is one of the few sports where amateurs play the same equipment (which is ridiculous if they're playng a different course than experts)

Peter Pallotta

Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2018, 03:30:56 PM »
Jim's point about hole/pin locations brought to mind something I've wondered about:


I've read here that those who run the Masters have, over the years, carefully mapped out the scoring impacts/results for each hole location on every green, such that they can 'encourage' any final winning score they wish to have simply by mixing and matching easier and/or more difficult locations.


There are quite a number of classic American courses that we call great, and several of those have hosted US Opens. I wonder if: a) those who set-up the US Open don't know as much about the hole locations (and varying/resulting scores) as do those at Augusta, such that they can't manipulate/encourage a final score, and/or  b) if many of these classic courses (as well designed as they are) simply don't have the kind of greens that Augusta has, i.e. the greens are not contoured & protected in a way that produces markedly differing scores depending on the pin location


P

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2018, 03:33:41 PM »



I was hoping to not use the term "bifurcation"......

It seems the USGA benefits from having everyone thinking they are playing the same course with the same equipment.  And then add in the absurd concept of a handicap and all are equal.

And then a scratch golfer can walk around on a good day thinking he can beat Tiger Woods and everyone becomes super happy.

Is there any other sport where the highly competent participants are so misled?
















Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2018, 05:57:55 PM »
You'd have to also leave the conditions the same as for the members or in case of a public track the general public including green speeds, bunker sand, rough height, etc. I'd bet the pro's used to perfect conditions, would hate this.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2018, 06:34:15 PM »
Peter -


ANGC keeps detailed, comprehensive records of every shot of every player for every round. I don't know how far back their data go, but I've heard they've collected it for several decades.


So you are no doubt right. They have a very good idea how different pin positions affect scoring. I don't doubt that they use that information to the max each day during the Masters.


Obviously ANGC is unique in that regard. I would guess that set-ups at other majors involve much more guess-work.


Bob






Jeff Evagues

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2018, 07:27:47 PM »
I play public courses and I've always said I'd like to see the tour guys putt on those greens. I played Scottsdale 2 days after the tournament a few years ago and it was almost impossible to not make every putt - they were perfect.
Be the ball

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2018, 08:14:30 PM »
10 under at Trinity Forest Today...

Cal Seifert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2018, 08:45:34 PM »
10 under at Trinity Forest Today...


Shouldnt have watered it!

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2018, 09:16:44 PM »
So,...wasn't there a 9 under at TPC Sawgrass last week??? so Trinity Forest is a stroke easier?


Been very happy to have had PGA/LPGA/Champions events at the WCC's Tournament (old TPC) Course, to understand the best it can be in conditioning and see how the pros can play it.   


I normally complain at Club Championship time that when they double roll the greens and generally juice up the courses played, its not fair to the average players, we don't get to see it that way very often, it can take most of a round to get used to it... and therein is a point, the pro's are coddled with near perfect conditions, but they see that every week and they separate themselves one way or another... that would be the same where ever they played..


ANGC can do whatever they want, good for them
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 09:18:27 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2018, 10:56:28 PM »
This is an interesting thread with some great thoughts, like Jim suggesting the PGA should let the local superintendent set the pins. But to me, it underscores one thing I know: when we are discussing what is good/great golf course architecture, there is very little to be gained by considering how the pros play a course. Some pros can bomb and gauge their way around a course, ignore the architecture, and rely upon their talent. Others like Zack Johnson can just rely on great accuracy to hit fairways and greens and make their share of putts. A few, like Jordan Speith, just putt their way to periodic victories.


It really sucks that the pros get perfect conditions. While they would whine about a poor lie in a sand hazard, they probably have the skill to deal with it. Jack Nicklaus had it right when they used long-tooth rakes at Muirfield one year: introduce randomness to lies in a bunker and the pros will think twice about where they might miss. Of course, CB Macdonald had an even better idea: prepare the bunkers with a team of mules...





James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2018, 11:05:16 PM »
So,...wasn't there a 9 under at TPC Sawgrass last week??? so Trinity Forest is a stroke easier?


Been very happy to have had PGA/LPGA/Champions events at the WCC's Tournament (old TPC) Course, to understand the best it can be in conditioning and see how the pros can play it.   


I normally complain at Club Championship time that when they double roll the greens and generally juice up the courses played, its not fair to the average players, we don't get to see it that way very often, it can take most of a round to get used to it... and therein is a point, the pro's are coddled with near perfect conditions, but they see that every week and they separate themselves one way or another... that would be the same where ever they played..


ANGC can do whatever they want, good for them


There was.  Once.  There were like 10 round below 66 today.  And my point is not that this is bad for Golf, but that Trinity Forest is probably suffering from the fact that because it is hosting the Tour for the first time, they are guessing at a setup that keeps scores in the range they would expect for a tour event.  In other words, they didn’t quite manipulate the course enough for the Tour and they will get skewered for scores that are too low. 

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2018, 12:53:22 AM »
Then you'd basically have Web.com events, where -20 and lower happens consistently.


To return to the essence of the opening post, can you please expand Matt on why -20 is a bad thing.
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2018, 10:06:11 AM »
There was.  Once.  There were like 10 round below 66 today.  And my point is not that this is bad for Golf, but that Trinity Forest is probably suffering from the fact that because it is hosting the Tour for the first time, they are guessing at a setup that keeps scores in the range they would expect for a tour event.  In other words, they didn’t quite manipulate the course enough for the Tour and they will get skewered for scores that are too low.


Maybe, maybe not. As I said before, the PGA Tour typically wants low scores at events like this. They think that's what brings in fans, and they usually try to set up courses accordingly. They don't want 58s and 59s, but they're very happy with 64s and 65s.


I'm sure a certain subset of fans will complain that the course was too easy, but I'm guessing the Tour (and the players) are very happy with the scoring.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2018, 11:07:16 AM »
The courses have to be manipulated so that the winning score is within an "acceptable number".


The self perpetuating problem is a three legged stool ---- the course ---  the ball ---- the club.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2018, 08:27:15 PM »
The courses have to be manipulated so that the winning score is within an "acceptable number”.


So it can’t look too easy, or too hard? That’s it?
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2018, 09:55:46 PM »
For the most part Sedgefield plays the same for the member as the pros. Greens are always fast. Biggest difference is 18 is par four for pros and five for member play.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2018, 01:23:40 AM »
Then you'd basically have Web.com events, where -20 and lower happens consistently.


To return to the essence of the opening post, can you please expand Matt on why -20 is a bad thing.


I didn't say it was a bad thing. You did!  :)


Although I would say that if players are shooting 20 or more under par, it's unlikely that their driving accuracy and short game are being held to a high standard. 

Peter Flory

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Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2018, 05:52:28 PM »

Then you'd basically have Web.com events, where -20 and lower happens consistently.


I don't know what the total scoring average is per tour, but I just looked at the top 10 players on each tour in scoring average.


The top 10 on the web.com tour have a total scoring average of 70.23
The top 10 on the PGA tour have a total scoring average of 69.53 (all of them average under 70). 


Since Jan 1, the average winning score on Web.com is -14.0 and the average winning score on the PGA tour is -16.1 (excluding the Masters). 


I'm not sure if the Web.com courses are set up easier or harder than the PGA tour courses.  From what I've seen on TV, my guess would be that the conditioning of the greens isn't quite as good or consistent. 




Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if courses weren’t manipulated for PGA Tour events?
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2018, 07:10:31 PM »
Then you'd basically have Web.com events, where -20 and lower happens consistently.


To return to the essence of the opening post, can you please expand Matt on why -20 is a bad thing.


I didn't say it was a bad thing. You did!  :)


Although I would say that if players are shooting 20 or more under par, it's unlikely that their driving accuracy and short game are being held to a high standard.


Sorry to be a pain Matt, but with greens stimping at 12+ and bomb and gouge in full effect, it doesn’t appear to me the current typical mode of PGA Tour course presentation holds driving accuracy or short game to a high standard.


Would you agree?


Perhaps the more important question is why some feel the need to manipulate courses so as to end up with a palatable winning score, and furthermore, what defines palatable...


MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

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