Gil Hanse + Lido in Bangkok

[Kyle Casella]

Apologies if this was started elsewhere, but I could not find anything. On the latest Fried Egg podcast Gil mentioned he is working on a project in Bangkok that is "inspired by the Lido. Not a perfect replica but the sequence of the holes is the same."


Site is described as "not very fun. Really heavy soil and very flat but we are knocking it into shape."



Nothing via quick web search or on Hanse website at the moment. Anyone have any insight?

[Tom_Doak]

I heard about this project from a turf consultant when I was traveling in India a month ago.  Don't know many more details than what has been posted, though.


I wondered then if Mike Keiser has heard about it?  Not that anyone owns the copyright on the idea, it's just weird to have someone build a concept that someone else has been talking about for so long.

[Niall C]

Tom

Given Mike Keiser generally picks sandy sites to develop and the whole world seems to be with in his range, do you think he'd choose to a country like Thailand to build on a flat site with heavy soil ? Seems unlikely to me but I don't know the man. I just wonder if instead NGLA style template inspired courses are the new "championship" course for modern developers ?

Niall

[Quinn Thompson]

Can it be a concept if it has been done before...?


Is that not all golf architecture is ? Building what's been built before ?

[Mark Fedeli]

As good a time as any to check in on the status of "The Lido at Streamsong" trademark: https://trademarks.justia.com/864/81/the-lido-at-86481901.html


Still going strong at extension number 5.

[Joe Hancock]

Can it be a concept if it has been done before...?


Is that not all golf architecture is ? Building what's been built before ?

No. Responding to the piece of land and utilizing its’ features without preconcieved notions can result in originality. 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom

Given Mike Keiser generally picks sandy sites to develop and the whole world seems to be with in his range, do you think he'd choose to a country like Thailand to build on a flat site with heavy soil ? Seems unlikely to me but I don't know the man. I just wonder if instead NGLA style template inspired courses are the new "championship" course for modern developers ?

Niall:


No I don't think Mike is going to Thailand ... I'd guess Gil sold the concept to someone there, instead of being asked to build it, though of course I could be wrong.  I'm with Joe in wondering why everyone seems to be out of original ideas - although I understand when you have a flat site you've gotta come up with an idea to get you started.

[Peter Pallotta]

If they'd just whispered it to a few friendly ears instead of announcing it publicly out loud, it would've soon become known as 'The Lido of the East'. The rest of the story would've written itself.

Reminds me of the Fran Lebowitz quip: 'Original thought is like Original Sin -- both happened a long time ago, to people you couldn't possibly have met.'

[Sean_A]

Original achitecture?  Maybe there is the odd bit here and there, but in an effort to be original I bet much of that is poor.  What gets passed off as orginal architecture is interesting/unique land treated lightly and with sympathy.  So in a strange way an archie can be original simply by not employing any of his previously learned concepts and letting well enough be. Even so, the finished "concept" will much more likely than not be something which already exists, but over a land which is a bit different.  I think it is practically universally the case that folks working in a business see things in such minute detail that they believe originally is achieved by small differences.  Who knows, maybe they are right?  What I believe is that orginality is so prized that people will trick themselves into believing....and to be honest there is no harm in that where golf architecture is concerned. 

Ciao

[Andrew Harvie]

August 2021 open. A few photos in the tweet below + thread


https://twitter.com/tonyjdear/status/1331067549333610496/photo/1

[Tommy Williamsen]

Wow. Looks like it might actually have been built. Too bad it’s not in Virginia.

[Peter Flory]

This is the best place to see pics of it:
https://www.instagram.com/ballyshear_golf_links/?hl=en

[Robin_Hiseman]

Also a decent write up to read here.


https://www.top100golfcourses.com/news-item/gil-hanses-recreation-of-the-lost-lido-to-open-in-2021

[Tim Martin]

Based on what I read and the accompanying photos it’s a course I would love to play. Although we have a fair amount of intrepid travelers on this site I think it’s one that few from outside the region will see. It’s a shame it won’t be more accessible.

[Thomas Dai]

Be interesting to somehow compare this with the ‘virtual’ work Peter has highlighted to us on this thread -
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65640.0.html
Atb

[Ronald Montesano]

Reminds me of the Fawn Leibowitz (RIP) quip: beware the kiln.

[Mike Hendren]

I was working on a Lido inspired design integrated with my HO railroad project featuring an L&N train with corrugated steel passenger cars and twin diesel locomotives.


Nevermind now that everybody’s gone Lido.


The Conductor

[Tom_Doak]

I was working on a Lido inspired design integrated with my HO railroad project featuring an L&N train with corrugated steel passenger cars and twin diesel locomotives.

You should just change the train to "L & M" and change the course to Langford-inspired.  Way more hipster right now.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Plenty of pics on Ballyshear's IG site: https://www.instagram.com/ballyshear_golf_links/

[Robin_Hiseman]

If the original Lido still existed and was in good shape, where do you think it would be ranked in the World list?


Was it regarded as better than NGLA?

[Paul Rudovsky]

If the original Lido still existed and was in good shape, where do you think it would be ranked in the World list?Was it regarded as better than NGLA?


Obviously almost impossible to answer accurately as there is no one who played it or even saw it who is still alive.  That being said...on the one hand I might say that it would not be in the Top 10 World since it was manufactured and based on courses built since, it is very hard to manufacture something as great as what natural forms (e.g. Sandhills) provide.  But there are exceptions to that...best probably being NGLA which was heavily "manufactured" (or at least miles from Sandhills in terms of "naturalness"), and another very different form of manufacturing would be the greens at Winged Foot, which clearly are not natural and may well be the be set of 36 greens in one location in the USA (and maybe second only to Royal Melbourne worldwide).

Additionally, given what CBM and Raynor were able to accomplish at NGLA, I think it is safe to assume that they got both the big picture and detail items done right at Lido and may well have pulled a "one-up" on the brilliant randomness of nature.  Plus I would guess that their experience at NGLA would give them a big leg-up in this process.  So net net, I would guess that it would today be a top 5-ish or even top 3-ish.

As I recall the likes of Darwin and Harmon called it the greatest ever (which of course means better than NGLA).  But even so, its greatness today would be a very much a function of how well it matured and whether the club would have provided the right oversight.  One could also guess that it was too close to the crowds of NYC to remain as great as it first was.  Think of how many great tracks were forced further out to survive (e.g. Fresh Meadow).  One could also guess that having both Lido and NGLA near each other (about 75 miles apart) might have split their followings in two.  No question a course can be great when first built and then devolve into something much less

Obviously this is 110% speculation and none of us know...which makes the question even better.

[MCirba]

The title of this thread and the strategies of Lido brought this ditty to mind.

https://youtu.be/QlL83llzMuo

[Mark Steffey]

am planning to head over mid-july, which now is too early.  so may have to schedule another visit late august and report back.

[Bill Gayne]

I read a lot about re-creating the Lido from GCA and GCA enthusiasts but I've never heard a retail golfer say something along the lines of "i would really like to see or play a re-created Lido." Unless the owner has really deep pockets isn't this a significant hill to overcome for financial viability?

[Lou_Duran]

Pack your bags Bill.  Bangkok is an interesting place.  Half of China was there when I visited.  The other half, according to an English tourist I met, was in Phucket.  Just a tiny slice of this market could be like a printing press for the club.  I didn't play golf during this family trip, but a club nearby our hotel was always busy when we drove by.  I'd consider a golf itinerary to include Viet Nam.