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Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Reading the courses by country review of Olympia Fields (North), the following statement stood out to me:

"As a former caddie at Olympia Fields, historian Sven Nilsen came to have a greater appreciation for Park's greens.  All but three of them (the third, sixty and eighteenth) are original to his day."

This made me wonder on what constitutes an original green, and how this would be determined?  I assume over the course of 90 years most greens would have been rebuilt or naturally alter at some point.  In the case of Olympia Fields, the 6th has obviously moved locations, but the others all seem to be in the original locations.  I'm assuming there were club documents that indicated the 3rd and 18th had been rebuilt at some point?

As for the remainder, I would assume topdressing and other activities will naturally slightly alter surface over the years.  I'm curious how a restoration architect would try to "restore" original slopes in cases where the original plans don't exist? 
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 03:40:24 PM by Andrew Buck »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What constitutes original greens, and how can they be confirmed
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2018, 03:42:22 AM »
None of the old guys built greens from plans anyway.  (Some did use plasticine models.)  They sculpted their greens on site, as some of us do today.


Yes, top dressing will change contours over time, and superintendents will do other things to make small but deliberate changes so that balls are less likely to roll off a green.  All we can really do is try to understand the intent and try to recover that.  There aren't any maps that are detailed enough from far enough back to be of use.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What constitutes original greens, and how can they be confirmed
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2018, 09:26:33 AM »
I was investigating the history of a club I’m a member at recently concentrating on old photographs. What I found was fascinating but the club had had a Clubhouse fire just after WWII and the building was gutted. Many records etc were apparently lost in the fire.
I imagine some clubs lost their old records and photos and plans etc for other reasons but Clubhouse fires at some clubs would also have contributed to the loss early day records.
Atb

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What constitutes original greens, and how can they be confirmed
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2018, 09:42:41 AM »
None of the old guys built greens from plans anyway.  (Some did use plasticine models.)  They sculpted their greens on site, as some of us do today.


Yes, top dressing will change contours over time, and superintendents will do other things to make small but deliberate changes so that balls are less likely to roll off a green.  All we can really do is try to understand the intent and try to recover that.  There aren't any maps that are detailed enough from far enough back to be of use.


Many of the Ross plans in the Tufts Archives have quite a bit of detail.  Because they are drawn on graph paper with a scale, at least possible to know size and shape.  His notes often have detail on contour.  Yes, I am sure that the construction people/shapers did not follow faithfully, but the plans could be used to get close to the original I think.  I remember comments from those who have restored Ross courses that the plans were a primary reference source.


Ira

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What constitutes original greens, and how can they be confirmed
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2018, 09:53:08 AM »
None of the old guys built greens from plans anyway.  (Some did use plasticine models.)  They sculpted their greens on site, as some of us do today.


Yes, top dressing will change contours over time, and superintendents will do other things to make small but deliberate changes so that balls are less likely to roll off a green.  All we can really do is try to understand the intent and try to recover that.  There aren't any maps that are detailed enough from far enough back to be of use.

Thanks for the honesty.  That is what I figured and I assume the more work someone see's from a particular architect the easier it is to understand. 

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What constitutes original greens, and how can they be confirmed
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2018, 10:14:47 AM »
Andrew,
This is a really tough question with no simple answer.  Golf courses (including the greens) are constantly changing and evolving from the “original” design.  There is really no such thing as an original green that has not been touched in away way (outside of a green on opening day when it was first built).  After that, most greens get mowed, scalped, settle, get top dressed, aerified, deep tined, verticut, fertilized, regrassed,…, the list goes on.  Hopefully they don't get rebuilt and/or moved but that of course happens as well.  Pinehurst #2 greens are a good example.  They are about as far from the “originals” as you can get. 


Restoration to me is along the lines of what Tom said - restoring original “intent”.  Even that is subjective but original plans/drawings, old photos, old aerials, written descriptions,… all help the cause if they can be uncovered.  Soil probing can be very helpful as well.  We use that a lot for example in bunkers to determine the original bunker shapes and floors.  Sometimes you can find bunkers that have literally three feet or more of sand in them.  Restoration of the famous Taft Bunker at Myopia Hunt Club is one example.  When “restoring” that bunker, they kept digging sand out of that bunker until they finally gave up (that is how deep it was). 


Greens tend to shrink (as do most things except trees on a golf course).  Restoring a green's size out to the edges of their fill pads is one of the easiest and most helpful things one can do to “restore” original design intent. This helps reconnect the greens to their surrounds/hazards, restores some of the best hole locations and makes the whole green complex more fun and interesting for all skill levels of golfers.  It takes some time and patience to get it right (figure a good year or two in most cases) but the enhancement to most greens is amazing. 


I could go on but hope this helps.
Mark

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What constitutes original greens, and how can they be confirmed
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2018, 10:21:31 AM »
Mark,

This helps a lot.  Thank you!

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What constitutes original greens, and how can they be confirmed
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2018, 10:44:39 AM »
One of the cool things about Cobb's Creek is that the city never had money to futz with them unless they had to due to flooding.


Joe Bausch and I estimate (from aerials and other documentation) that today there remain 13 or 14 original Hugh Wilson and friends designed greens that were built by William Flynn still in existence.


All are in their original locations but six holes had to be re-routed in the 50s due to losing acreage (approx 15%) to an Air Defense military base that lasted less than five years. 


All is still restorable.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

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