Baxter Spann's Feature Interview is posted

[Ran Morrissett]

This Feature Interview with Baxter Spann is the first one that we have done with an architect whereby 80-90% of the questions are devoted to the analysis of one course. I hope people like the idea of doing more such interviews in the future, and like this one, it will only be done on courses where we were all invited to attend/play.

In terms of this particular one, Baxter's straightforward and direct manner gives great insight into the design and construction of Black Mesa. He gives a tip of the hat to Mike Strantz/Tobacco Road as follows:

"Actually, though, I have to go back to an earlier inspiration I received. Just before getting into the final routing of the course, I had played Tobacco Road. I was blown away by the dramatic features there and by some of the chances Mike Strantz took on the design of that course. I also knew that many felt that TR was 'over the top' or overly severe in many places, but to me it was not any more severe than many of the great places in Ireland and Scotland that are revered by everyone.  There just haven’t been enough guys who are willing to risk working 'on the edge' to create something that breaks away from the routine, formulaic golf hole  design patterns that have become so prevalent in America. Tobacco Road slapped me in the face and made me realize what wild and exciting golf holes can result when conventional wisdom and traditional limits are abandoned in favor of fresh creativity and vision. The other effect I noticed after finishing play at Tobacco Road, was the feeling that I had just finished a four and a half hour chess game -the strategic planning required for each shot was tremendous."


When was the last time you heard a big name modern architect compliment another modern architect's work??  I remember Coore doing so to Doak at PacDunes and several architects like Tim Liddy and Bob Harrison have done so in regards to Dye's work but in general, the bigger the name, the less compliments seem to be doled out to other living architects. (In fact, one name design firm apparently has a policy whereby their associate architects aren't to mention/acknowledge any other new course in the area  ???and they certainly aren't to go see it - talk about stupid  ).

It is GREAT to see someone like Baxter who is so comfortable/confident with his own work that he passes compliments around freely. The canned architect babble so frequently found in magazines is absent in his writing.

This web site is very gratful for all the time that Baxter has spent with us and hopefully, everyone will enjoy this month's Feature Interview.

Cheers,

[George Pazin]

Fantastic interview, one of the best to date. The usual thought provoking questions coupled with in depth responses.

I was intrigued to read that a good bit of earth moving was done on #4 - I wouldn't have guessed that at all.

In comparing & contrasting different approaches to similar holes, #8 at Black Mesa and #8 at Wolf Creek in Mesquite, NV are both long downhill par 3s, yet at Black Mesa, Baxter provides much more room for recovery on an errant shot, though it is certainly not an easy recovery. Well done.

Thanks Baxter & Ran and thanks for everything on the trip.

[RJ_Daley]

Of course, I was really disappointed that I didn't make it out to Black Mesa and the NM gathering.  I was slated to enjoy a round with Baxter, and it is probably a good thing for him that I missed it, or I might not have been able to restrain myself from asking a ton of questions and end up distracting him from a well deserved enjoyable round on his own course.

It is really hard to believe that only 200K of soil was cut and filled and transported to produce this amazing looking course.  If Bax is reading these responses, I wonder if he could tell us if they ran into much difficulty floating the rootzone material over subgrades on such rumpled and highly contoured greens.  Did they have to invent creative techniques to accomplish that, or would they have to say that maintaining a consistently deep rootzone as they were floated was not always possible and that addressing that potential difficulty falls more in the realm of watering and fert and chem application techinques to take into account the rumples and humps and hollows within the greens to prevent collection in lows and runnoff from higher ridges...  

Now Bax, you really wouldn't want to be answering all manner of innane questions like that while you are playing, would you?

[A_Clay_Man]

Great!

What's even greater is that New Mexican's are being exposed to a beautiful option filled canvas built using the land which is much closer to the way golf should be, rather than what they've been exposed to previously.

Up here in the four corners we are fortunate to have one of Baxter's earlier work Riverview. The nine holes Spann built here are arguably the best nine in the county. Now, with Baxter's name on the best venue in the state an additional nine holes are sure to soon follow. Lucky me!

When I first spoke with Baxter one year ago he said to me " Oh you like the back nine at Riverview? Black Mesa is that on steroids" He wasn't exaggerating.

Everyone should look forward to his next project in southern Colorado. He gave the group a quick overview and some history on it, at our impromtu roundtable, after our round at Paa-Ko- Ridge.

[RBSpann]

RJ- Sorry you were unable to make it to the "Land of Entrapment" last month.  It really was a neat weekend on all fronts.  To answer your question, the toughest thing about getting the seedbed material on the greens was getting it TO the greens.  Paul Ortiz had to use a 4-wheel drive JCB dumptruck with high floatation tires to get material into the greensites - many of which are guarded by some tough terrain.  Once on the greens, PJ and Tom Ortiz were responsible for placing the material on the subgrade.  We built "California" greens, so there was no gravel blanket.  We used a steel probe to maintain the proper depth over the subgrade, which was made more difficult without the gravel blanket below to give that definite crunch when you hit bottom.  Pat I'm sure also has to manage the irrigation and fertility to keep the high "hot" spots healthy in that arid, windy climate.  We were careful in the low areas to make sure that adequate surface slope was built to provide positive surface drainage so these areas would not get soggy if a little extra water needed to be applied to the high areas.

[BCrosby]

Baxter -

Could you tell us a little more about Joe Finger and Byron Nelson? Did they do a lot of work together? My understanding is that they worked on relatively few courses as a team.

I ask because their joint effort at no. 8 at ANGC was so good. My understanding is that Cliff Roberts gave the job to Nelson but he refused it unless Finger was involved too. Is that right? Were you involved with that project? If so, we would love to hear about the analysis involved in the changes that were finally made. Was there an initial decision to restore MacKenzie's features on the hole or did that decsion evolve from another starting point?  

Did Finger or Nelson influence you in any specific ways? Nelson's views of gof course architecture are not well known. At least by me.

Congratulations on Black Mesa. I hope to get there soon. It sounds terrific.

Bob

[RBSpann]

Bob, the following is from a post I made last spring about the scenario of the work on the 8th at Augusta:

While I was working for Joe Finger in the summer of 1978 in between semesters at LSU, the Club approached Byron Nelson with regard to his recollections of the original 8th green, as the Club wanted his involvement in restoring the green to its original form. It seems that Mr. Roberts had decided to relocate the original green for spectator purposes, which Bob Jones vehemently disagreed with. He was even more vehement when the reconstructed green turned out to be as TKearns described previously. (When I first saw that green in person, it really jumped out to me as the single green at Augusta which definitely did not belong out there - a uniform plane of a putting surface with two shallow, flat bunkers on either side.) After Mr. Roberts death, the Club soon decided to restore the original green as they believed Mr. Jones would have wished, though shifted slightly to the left to allow the required spectator space between No. 8 green and No. 9 tee.

Mr. Nelson told the Club he worked with Joe Finger, and that he would need to use him as an architectural consultant if they wanted his (Nelson's) involvement. The Club agreed and sent us copies of the original Mackenzie green drawing and the topographic survey of the current existing green. We then made a few attempts to translate the Mackenzie sketches into contour plans that could be staked, constructed, and fit into the space available. After I returned to school for the fall semester, Ken Dye completed the construction plans and built a detailed scale model at 1" = 10' for the Club to approve. The peaks of the mounds actually were softened slightly from the original design for mowing considerations. After the 1979 Masters, construction began with Joe, Byron, and Ken very closely involved on site with supervision of the contouring.

That is pretty much the story as best as I recall, and again, in my opinion the "restored" version of the green is vastly superior to the interim replacement green which was there previously, and Mr. Nelson felt that it was as close to the original as he could get it.




Nelson and Finger worked together on several projects over the years.  Riverhill CC in Kerrville was the first one they did together I believe, and is where Mr. Finger retired to in the late 1980's, and where Mr. Nelson still has a part time home.  I first worked with Mr. Nelson during a remodeling he and Mr. Finger did at Preston Trail in 1977.  They did the original layout at Grapevine (TX) municipal together at about that time also.  Next, they collaborated at Deerfield CC near Madison, MS.  During this collaboration, they did the work at Augusta in 1979.  Deerwood GC in Houston was done by them just after their work at Augusta, and the greens there were influenced heavily by ANGC.  This also was the first major project that Ken Dye co-designed with Mr. Finger.  That was really the last project that Finger & Nelson worked on closely together.  I was fortunate to do one more project on my own with Mr. Nelson at Timarron CC in Southlake, TX (near DFW airport).  

I have many great memories from that project with him.  He is every bit the nice gentleman that everyone says he is.  He would visit the site frequently during constuction, and we would drive him around the entire course in the site vehicle.  Most of his input was given in the field.  Even though his hip was giving him horrible trouble, he would insist on getting out of the truck numerous times and hobbling over rocks, dirt, mud, or whatever with his cane to see how green contours were coming along, or how the approach looked from the fairway.  He wasn't much interested in reading plans, but he was VERY interested in seeing the work on the ground.  At lunch time, we would go to TGI Friday's or Chili's or someplace and just sit with him like he was "one of the guys" and mostly just talk about the job, or how preparations for his tournament were going, or what new treatment he was trying for his hip.  With a just a little coaxing he would tell a few stories of his playing days.  My favorite (which is too long to get into here) was of the "friendly" match he and Hogan had with Ken Venturi and Harvey Ward at Cypress Point (when the latter two were amateurs).  I believe a number of years ago Golf Mag. had an article "Was This The Greatest Match Ever Played?" or something to that effect.  It recounted the story in amazing detail.  I recall that Venturi and Ward had a best ball 63 or something, and LOST on the last hole!  

Anyway, I need to get back to work.  Maybe able to post some more later.

[Lou_Duran]

Great interview Ran and Baxter.  It helped me to understand the course much better.  I am particularly impressed with the team concept from the outset with a nice balance of technical expertise and the ability to play the game.  In my opinion, the goal of keeping the greens at around 8.5 is a must if the course is to keep the average player coming back.

Questions for Baxter and/or Pat:

1) with the amount of slope on the greens and the surrounds, the arid climate, and the wind, can a consistent 8.5 speed be achieved?  If the greens are cut long to achieve this, won't the average be achieved by extremely slow uphill putts and lightning fast going downhill?  If you have to water heavily, won't it take away from how the course was meant to be played?  Can the rest of the course be maintained "firm and fast" while the greens are not?

2) is it feasible or desirable to remove the smaller rocks (not boulders) say 10 to 15 yards on both sides of the landing areas?  Or is it too costly and would it change the natural look you are after?

3) how important is being a good golfer (one who can hit most shots, including with the short clubs; not necessarily a tournament type player) in designing and maintaining a golf course such as BM?  Can an architect or superintendent be effective relying primarily on technical training (landscape architecture, turf management, agronomy, etc.) without considerable experience playing the game?

I look forward to seeing more of Baxter's work and returning to BM (even if it kicks my butt again).  

[BCrosby]

Thanks, Baxter. It must have been your old post I was remembering. I had never heard your story about the 8th green before. Fascinating about the Jones/Roberts interplay and how they waited until after Robert's death to restore the green.

As you know, it is the only restoration at ANGC of an altered MacKenzie feature.

I agree with you, the restored green complex is very successful. A wonderful result.

It sounds like that the impetus to restore the 8th green came from the club. Interesting. And, man, how things have changed in 25 years.

Did Nelson articulate to you any favorite architects, courses or styles? He was the only one of the Hogan/Snead/Nelson triumvirate that did any serious design work. And even he didn't do that much.

Bob  
 

 

[RBSpann]

Bob,
Regarding Mr. Nelson's favorites, I never really got much directly from him on particular architects, although once he was asked by somenone what was his favorite golf course.  His response was (paraphrased) ... "this may surprise you, but my favorite is Riverhill in Kerrville, Texas, a little course that Joe Finger and I built."  Mr. Nelson has a part time home there and that is also where Mr. Finger built a home in the late '80's.  It is deep in the "Texas Hill Country" - truly a beautiful part of the country and one of the most scenic areas in Texas.  Other that that, Augusta and Inverness were 2 courses that I recall he spoke highly of.  Mr. Nelson also worked with Ralph Plummer before his work with Finger, and later worked with GolfResources - DA Weibring's firm.  On our projects, he really looked out for the average player - he was very sensitive to hazards or overly severe green contours that the average guy couldn't handle.  That is probably why he likes Riverhill so much - it is a well conditioned, pleasant course to play that can be set up to resist scoring, but yet is still a very playable members course.  Also, as a rancher, he was certainly much more cognizant of agronomic issues - grasses, water, soils, etc. than most other pro/ designers.

Lou,
I appreciate your thoughts. Pat may want to chime in on the green speed and maintenance issues, but I think that the conditions in which we played it in September were just about exactly how I would want to see them continue (firmness/ speed).  I think the rock issue is something that can be addressed over time, but is probably not a high priority item right now.  The rugged, natural desert conditions are part of the experience on this site, and the density of rocks and woody vegetation is the same or less than I've experienced on other courses in the region.  Also, there is just too much of it to realistically make a dent in it with the modest crew size.  I'd much rather have them focused on the turf areas where you're supposed to be rather than the natural areas where you're not.  A Las Campanas-sized crew (which probably exceeds Pat's by a factor of 400% to 600%) might have time for more "clean up" in the native areas, but on a course that is still really "growing-in" in places, they need to give their full attention to the turf.

Lastly, I think a good golf course architect (and a good superintendent) must have a passion for the game, and be able to hit good golf shots with all the clubs.  I think its also important that you be able to hit bad shots with all the clubs!  In other words, you should have an understanding of excellent play as well as some idea of poor play to allow the maximum range of golfers to enjoy your course.  I know of a number of arch's and supr's who used to play, but after some years in the business say "I'm on a golf course all day from dawn to dusk, why would I want to spend my free time back out here?"    ...I hope I never get to that point.    

[BCrosby]

Baxter -

Thanks. Great stuff. I hope you will continue to participate in this whacky forum. Your contributions would be much appreciated.

Bob